Johns Hopkins 2018

Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby MDlaxfan76 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:00 am

random observer wrote:
DocBarrister wrote:^^^^

Ok, wait a minute ... Patrick Spencer may have been JV for a while, but he was JV at Boys Latin, one of the highest profile HS lax programs in the country. Plus, Spencer scored 82 points on the JV squad. Yeah ... 82 points. He also showcased himself at Jake Reed.

But the best indication that Spencer was flying above the radar (not below it)? Loyola, just a season removed from a national championship, got him to commit after his sophomore year. Yeah ... Spencer was an early recruit for THE only program in the state that had (up to that time) won a national title during the current decade.

Seriously ... how much of a “late bloomer” can someone be if he commits after his sophomore year (2013) to the 2012 national champions? :confusion-shrug: Makes for a nice story, but please ....

http://toplaxrecruits.com/reqruitme-boy ... -to-loyola

C’mon ... it’s not like this guy suddenly popped out of nowhere. Did some coaches miss Spencer? Maybe, but the 2013 Loyola lacrosse team was hardly a “minor” program. In college lacrosse, Loyola was and is a top-tier program.

As for Shack, we can agree to disagree. I think he’s the best Hopkins attackman since Byrne and Huntley were playing for Petro.

DocBarrister 8)

Obviously this is all relative. No, he wasn't a literal unknown that nobody had heard of. But it's undeniable that he was completely off the radar of the elite programs (yes Loyola had just won a championship, but they weren't and still aren't a go-to destination for top recruits), and a late bloomer by the standards of the recruiting cycle.

You are still framing Spencer's commitment from the vantage point of current recruiting measures. Committing after sophomore year was absolutely late by the standards of the early recruiting era -- at least for kids expected to be big-time players at the next level. For reference, look at Loyola's top two recruits for this incoming class (Kevin Lindley, TX's #26 recruit, and Aidan Olmstead #30). Olmstead was an elite recruit who committed in the fall of his freshman year before playing a minute of high school lacrosse. Lindley was a fringe top 100 prospect until after his senior season, and he still committed after his freshman season -- a full year earlier than Spencer, and before he had played a minute of JV or Varsity lacrosse.

There were probably 100-200 kids in the class of 2015 who had committed by the time Loyola locked down Spencer. Championship or no championship, they were not (and still are not) competing with the big boys for top recruits. Spencer himself said that all of the top schools had no spots for him. The schools after him were Loyola, PSU, Villanova, and Fairfield -- all good programs, but not the ones that are gunning for consensus top 100 recruits. Every single ACC and Ivy program, and all but one of the B1G programs completely overlooked him.


R&O is exactly correct.

Doc, while doing well on the JV in the MIAA certainly should be an adequate indicator of future potential, and was prior to the ER era, and hopefully will be again going forward, in the ER era it was freshmen who were getting all the attention, and even into their 8th grade. If you didn't commit until after sophomore season, you were relatively late. He's described as a late bloomer for sound reason, albeit not as late as some kids who don't come into their own until they're junior and senior years. It's also important to note that BL and CHC were typically putting any freshman with lots of potential onto the varsity right away. And certainly in sophomore year. Patrick didn't get onto the varsity until junior year. (BTW, what's your reference for 82 pts on JV? I'm not aware of any repository of JV box scores...hard enough to find varsity #'s in MIAA !)

My son was in the recruiting cycle 3 years earlier, with the earliest commit in that class being in the winter before sophomore season. The 3 members of his Gilman class who made the varsity as sophomores all received significant recruiting attention, though two didn't get the nod from their #1 choices and the 3rd went to his dad's alma mater. (all did super well in college, though one had to stop due to concussions; the other two were captains of their team, one a NC and the other the #1 Dman in Big 10). But they were the only ones who had much attention. My son and another youngster were captains of the JV as sophomores and neither were starters on varsity until senior year, with understandable lukewarm attention early, but both ended up playing for Ivy teams and earning starting roles.

Petro was on the bleeding edge of ER with many of the very earliest recruits. Most of the class of '15 commits to Hopkins were already done well before Spencer was emerging.

I do disagree that Spencer wouldn't have wanted to come to Hopkins because Shack was already there (assuming they got on well at BL); excellent players tend to want to play with other excellent players and on winning teams, all else being equal.

I think what Toomey has proven is that one can build a highly competitive program without the most highly touted (early) recruits. More power to him.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby SteelHop2 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:11 am

Cyanocitta Cristata wrote:Ryan Brown is #2


Brown not making AA his junior year after setting the Hopkins goal scoring record was a complete joke.

Cyanocitta Cristata wrote:I think both a fan and Steelhop are correct even though they are arguing a little bit. Hopkins talent is no where near what it was in the first half of the Petro era - not even close and therefore Petro has to take the bullets for that. The all-in on early as possible recruiting hurt the program.


If his position is that Hopkins hasn't had the talent to win a championship over the last decade. I don't argue with that one at all. I think that has been the case. My issue is at some point failing to recruit and develop* players because that will result in not winning enough at a school like Hopkins should cost a coach his job. He feels that Hopkins won't get anyone better whereas I think the last decade demonstrates that going to 1 FF in 10 years for a program like Hopkins isn't exactly an extreme standard to set for the next coach.

*developing players can fill in a hole or two but at the end of the day, you need difference makers to win titles. And Hopkins has only had one real difference maker in the last decade - Ryan Brown - who also worked on his game a ton and continued to develop over his 4 years at Hopkins. Otherwise, it has been a bunch of decent players that every team has.

I also fully admit that there are more schools putting more money into their programs and that the HS talent is deeper than ever that finding that difference maker makes a coaches job harder. But, here is the thing...some schools have figured it out - the school down 95 seems to have done pretty well. Hopkins (aka Petro) need to do it, too. And I am not asking for championships every year. I think a standard of making a FF every 3ish years is a very doable goal. Making the FF means you are competing for the championship and that on MD weekend anyone has the ability to win the title.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby BeaverCreek on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote:
random observer wrote:
DocBarrister wrote:^^^^

Ok, wait a minute ... Patrick Spencer may have been JV for a while, but he was JV at Boys Latin, one of the highest profile HS lax programs in the country. Plus, Spencer scored 82 points on the JV squad. Yeah ... 82 points. He also showcased himself at Jake Reed.

But the best indication that Spencer was flying above the radar (not below it)? Loyola, just a season removed from a national championship, got him to commit after his sophomore year. Yeah ... Spencer was an early recruit for THE only program in the state that had (up to that time) won a national title during the current decade.

Seriously ... how much of a “late bloomer” can someone be if he commits after his sophomore year (2013) to the 2012 national champions? :confusion-shrug: Makes for a nice story, but please ....

http://toplaxrecruits.com/reqruitme-boy ... -to-loyola

C’mon ... it’s not like this guy suddenly popped out of nowhere. Did some coaches miss Spencer? Maybe, but the 2013 Loyola lacrosse team was hardly a “minor” program. In college lacrosse, Loyola was and is a top-tier program.

As for Shack, we can agree to disagree. I think he’s the best Hopkins attackman since Byrne and Huntley were playing for Petro.

DocBarrister 8)

Obviously this is all relative. No, he wasn't a literal unknown that nobody had heard of. But it's undeniable that he was completely off the radar of the elite programs (yes Loyola had just won a championship, but they weren't and still aren't a go-to destination for top recruits), and a late bloomer by the standards of the recruiting cycle.

You are still framing Spencer's commitment from the vantage point of current recruiting measures. Committing after sophomore year was absolutely late by the standards of the early recruiting era -- at least for kids expected to be big-time players at the next level. For reference, look at Loyola's top two recruits for this incoming class (Kevin Lindley, TX's #26 recruit, and Aidan Olmstead #30). Olmstead was an elite recruit who committed in the fall of his freshman year before playing a minute of high school lacrosse. Lindley was a fringe top 100 prospect until after his senior season, and he still committed after his freshman season -- a full year earlier than Spencer, and before he had played a minute of JV or Varsity lacrosse.

There were probably 100-200 kids in the class of 2015 who had committed by the time Loyola locked down Spencer. Championship or no championship, they were not (and still are not) competing with the big boys for top recruits. Spencer himself said that all of the top schools had no spots for him. The schools after him were Loyola, PSU, Villanova, and Fairfield -- all good programs, but not the ones that are gunning for consensus top 100 recruits. Every single ACC and Ivy program, and all but one of the B1G programs completely overlooked him.


R&O is exactly correct.

Doc, while doing well on the JV in the MIAA certainly should be an adequate indicator of future potential, and was prior to the ER era, and hopefully will be again going forward, in the ER era it was freshmen who were getting all the attention, and even into their 8th grade. If you didn't commit until after sophomore season, you were relatively late. He's described as a late bloomer for sound reason, albeit not as late as some kids who don't come into their own until they're junior and senior years. It's also important to note that BL and CHC were typically putting any freshman with lots of potential onto the varsity right away. And certainly in sophomore year. Patrick didn't get onto the varsity until junior year. (BTW, what's your reference for 82 pts on JV? I'm not aware of any repository of JV box scores...hard enough to find varsity #'s in MIAA !)

My son was in the recruiting cycle 3 years earlier, with the earliest commit in that class being in the winter before sophomore season. The 3 members of his Gilman class who made the varsity as sophomores all received significant recruiting attention, though two didn't get the nod from their #1 choices and the 3rd went to his dad's alma mater. (all did super well in college, though one had to stop due to concussions; the other two were captains of their team, one a NC and the other the #1 Dman in Big 10). But they were the only ones who had much attention. My son and another youngster were captains of the JV as sophomores and neither were starters on varsity until senior year, with understandable lukewarm attention early, but both ended up playing for Ivy teams and earning starting roles.

Petro was on the bleeding edge of ER with many of the very earliest recruits. Most of the class of '15 commits to Hopkins were already done well before Spencer was emerging.

I do disagree that Spencer wouldn't have wanted to come to Hopkins because Shack was already there (assuming they got on well at BL); excellent players tend to want to play with other excellent players and on winning teams, all else being equal.

I think what Toomey has proven is that one can build a highly competitive program without the most highly touted (early) recruits. More power to him.



Where does Jacob Stover fit in that paradigm? I thought he was Maryland's top player his senior year at McDonogh, and he committed to Loyola as well. I just don't recall when he committed.

The broader point is Toomey gets his fair share...
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby MDlaxfan76 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 am

The operative word is "senior" not freshman year.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby vipersback on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:26 am

Lax Fidelis wrote:
HopAlum80 wrote:I loved hearing Zim in the announcing booth. He really knows the game and he totally overshadowed Quint. That's a win-win.

Zim clearly didn't know the rule about uncontrolled swings that didn't hit anyone can be called for slashing. He did acknowledge that QK was correct after saying he had checked the rule book during the halftime break.

Are you actually suggesting that QK doesn't know the game? :whatever:


I think Zim as a color commentator is a "work in progress". He is much improved since his debut last year and I will say, watching the game with my son getting ready for Varsity tryouts, Zim's insights and commentary into players positioning and technique after plays were insightful and appreciated.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby MDlaxfan76 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:28 am

I agree re Ryan Brown and 1st team AA honors.
I also think that both Stanwicks have been first rate attack men and likely would have had more honors had the team as a whole been better, both because team success translates to individual honors and because the better your teammates the higher your own scoring, especially as a feeder/QB type.

Really good players, fully capable of being leaders on NC contender teams had that been the situation. I suspect that they would have gladly traded individual honors for an NC, though!

The issue was overall team strength, not whether there were a couple of terrific players at attack.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby vipersback on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:45 am

HopAlum80 wrote:A lot of factors go into recruiting and they are not always under the Coach's control. The skyrocketing tuition costs for instance. If you have a partial scholarship, you're still better off financially going to a state school, especially if they offer you in-state tuition (wink, wink). Some players get injured early and don't live up to expectations. Some players have issues and have to move on. The Rabil-type players are all going to UVA now, we haven't had a first team AA attackman since what 2005? Kyle Barrie? So, no, we don't have the players we had a decade ago. But, based on the Towson game, they seem to have changed some strategies etc and the team looked improved from last year. That's only one data point and the next three games will be telling since they are all pretty decent offenses. Early recruiting has probably done more harm than good for the program. But I suspect we would need more institutional-level support to get back into the National Championship conversation.


This is a great point. Having gone through this process recently and doing it again with a current HS Junior, I can tell you that from an "affordability" perspective, Loyola is much more attractive than Hopkins. At least 10K cheaper per year and much more generous with scholarship money. Hopkins DOES NOT give academic merit based aid, while Loyola does and if you think lacrosse will cover the cost of either school you are living in another universe.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby HopFan16 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:52 am

Are we really doing this recruiting thing again? Real games have been played. I know this may come as a shock to some but you don't HAVE to continue talking about the same things over and over.

Paul Rabil is apparently buddies with Steph Curry now: https://twitter.com/StephenCurry30/stat ... 4662331392

Brock was named to the USILA team of the week: http://www.hopkinssports.com/sports/m-l ... 18aaa.html

Any theories as to why Forry barely played last weekend? I'm with CC on this one. I hope his talent is not wasted. How many huge goals did he have for us last year? One of them came in the waning minutes against the team from up the street we're playing this week.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby HopAlum80 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:06 am

We could speculate on the Forry situation but without more info we're really just guessing in the dark.
But that's pretty much what we do anyway, so here goes.
He could have been injured at some point and is just now working his way back into the lineup.
Or the coaches could be committed to giving Cole a chance to turn the corner and are determined to give him the minutes until he does. It isn't hard to see Cole's upside. In this case, Forry may be the odd man out which isn't so good because I think he brings a lot to the table. In this case, maybe you try Forry at midfield because right now the only midfield production we have is from two players, Tinney and Concannon. The cupboard is overflowing at attack and almost empty at midfield.
I hope Forry sees more time as the season progresses. More offensive balance would be a plus.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby laxwheatfield on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:09 am

SteelHop2 wrote:
Cyanocitta Cristata wrote:Ryan Brown is #2


Brown not making AA his junior year after setting the Hopkins goal scoring record was a complete joke.

Cyanocitta Cristata wrote:I think both a fan and Steelhop are correct even though they are arguing a little bit. Hopkins talent is no where near what it was in the first half of the Petro era - not even close and therefore Petro has to take the bullets for that. The all-in on early as possible recruiting hurt the program.


If his position is that Hopkins hasn't had the talent to win a championship over the last decade. I don't argue with that one at all. I think that has been the case. My issue is at some point failing to recruit and develop* players because that will result in not winning enough at a school like Hopkins should cost a coach his job. He feels that Hopkins won't get anyone better whereas I think the last decade demonstrates that going to 1 FF in 10 years for a program like Hopkins isn't exactly an extreme standard to set for the next coach.

*developing players can fill in a hole or two but at the end of the day, you need difference makers to win titles. And Hopkins has only had one real difference maker in the last decade - Ryan Brown - who also worked on his game a ton and continued to develop over his 4 years at Hopkins. Otherwise, it has been a bunch of decent players that every team has.

I also fully admit that there are more schools putting more money into their programs and that the HS talent is deeper than ever that finding that difference maker makes a coaches job harder. But, here is the thing...some schools have figured it out - the school down 95 seems to have done pretty well. Hopkins (aka Petro) need to do it, too. And I am not asking for championships every year. I think a standard of making a FF every 3ish years is a very doable goal. Making the FF means you are competing for the championship and that on MD weekend anyone has the ability to win the title.

So it WASN"T the players who were one goal away from tying it to possibly win in OT...and make the finals...in 2015, it was Petro's coaching? so confused
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby Cyanocitta Cristata on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 am

BeaverCreek wrote:I do disagree that Spencer wouldn't have wanted to come to Hopkins because Shack was already there (assuming they got on well at BL); excellent players tend to want to play with other excellent players and on winning teams, all else being equal.


You are a lot closer to the Baltimore scene than I am and I already said I have zero knowledge on Spencer's recruiting but I don't think it is that unreasonable of a position to think that Spencer - regardless of whether he and Shack were/are friends - might have a thought that playing at Hopkins may put three years on his ledger where he is not the guy with the ball in his stick virtually every time to start the offense like he is at Loyola and like Shack has been at Hopkins (except for the season when he played with his brother). I do think - given lacrosse is a very fringe pro sport - that A - you should choose the school you think is the best fit for your future beyond lacrosse but B when it comes down to thinking about lacrosse - playing time/logjams/roster composition may come into it.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby vipersback on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:39 am

There really are so many factors that go into a recruits reason for choosing a school, many of which are very personal, that it's a specious argument to tie coaching inefficiencies to the ability to get specific individual recruits. From a recruiting perspective, perhaps the general question is whether the coach is getting the talent and combination of players to optimize team chemistry, and put the best product on the field.

I don't know if Hopkins was or wasn't a possibility for Spencer because of early recruiting or other reasons. In addition I have no idea what was important to Spencer in a school, team, coach, etc.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby FannOLax on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:48 am

On a lighter note, is it mere coincidence that the helmets worn against Towson bear a striking design resemblance to those worn by Super Bowl champs Philly Eagles? JHU must have more helmet designs than any other D1 lax team. Does Petro handle this? Or is there is an Assistant AD in charge of lax helmets?? :think:
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby Cyanocitta Cristata on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:54 am

I could take or leave the helmets but give me the new Uniforms all day long - very classic but sharp.

Postscript - Knowing there is a lot of concern in college athletics over jerseys and individual players numbers and profits etc. Still think it would behoove Hopkins to make replicas of these jerseys - either no number at all or pick a number that hasn't been used and won't be.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby vipersback on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:56 am

On a lighter note, is it mere coincidence that the helmets worn against Towson bear a striking design resemblance to those worn by Super Bowl champs Philly Eagles? JHU must have more helmet designs than any other D1 lax team. Does Petro handle this? Or is there is an Assistant AD in charge of lax helmets??


Maybe we will see Doug Pederson replacing Bellichek on the sidelines :think: :think: :think: :think:
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby HopFan16 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:09 am

HopAlum80 wrote:We could speculate on the Forry situation but without more info we're really just guessing in the dark.
But that's pretty much what we do anyway, so here goes.
He could have been injured at some point and is just now working his way back into the lineup.
Or the coaches could be committed to giving Cole a chance to turn the corner and are determined to give him the minutes until he does. It isn't hard to see Cole's upside. In this case, Forry may be the odd man out which isn't so good because I think he brings a lot to the table.


This is quite possible—likely even—but it doesn't explain why Keogh and Baskin are getting runs out of the box before Forry ever touches the field (will have to watch the tape again but I think Fox may have come through the box once or twice in 6v6 as well). Forry was more of a backup/reserve player against Towson instead of the rotational attackman we expected him to be this year, and that he was for the second half of 2017. If he was banged up at all, I don't see why you then throw him out there in the 4th quarter of a blowout and risk re-injury. Maybe Benson saw that the offense was clicking and didn't want to mess with chemistry in the middle of a game. You're right, this is all total speculation, but I guess I was hoping someone here is a little closer to the situation and could provide a hint.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby MDlaxfan76 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:11 am

Cyanocitta Cristata wrote:
BeaverCreek wrote:I do disagree that Spencer wouldn't have wanted to come to Hopkins because Shack was already there (assuming they got on well at BL); excellent players tend to want to play with other excellent players and on winning teams, all else being equal.


You are a lot closer to the Baltimore scene than I am and I already said I have zero knowledge on Spencer's recruiting but I don't think it is that unreasonable of a position to think that Spencer - regardless of whether he and Shack were/are friends - might have a thought that playing at Hopkins may put three years on his ledger where he is not the guy with the ball in his stick virtually every time to start the offense like he is at Loyola and like Shack has been at Hopkins (except for the season when he played with his brother). I do think - given lacrosse is a very fringe pro sport - that A - you should choose the school you think is the best fit for your future beyond lacrosse but B when it comes down to thinking about lacrosse - playing time/logjams/roster composition may come into it.


Some of this is simply factual. Spencer's commitment came a full year after the first commitments to Hopkins. Clearly he had not been at the top of their list, nor any of the traditional power programs, according to what he said publicly at the time.

Now, whether he'd have chosen Loyola over Hopkins, had both been equally interested at the same time, is another question altogether. I tend to think that had he been heavily pursued by Hopkins, he might well have been happy to say yes and be part of a NC focused team. But it's equally plausible that his experience of having not been heavily promoted, early, at BL may have made him eager to find his own stage. But remember that his commitment to Loyola came before he was actually considered a premiere player in the MIAA, just coming into himself physically and growing fast. As I don't know him or his family, no actual insight, other than what is public or externally obvious from the timeline.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby wgdsr on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 am

Cyanocitta Cristata wrote:I could take or leave the helmets but give me the new Uniforms all day long - very classic but sharp.

Postscript - Knowing there is a lot of concern in college athletics over jerseys and individual players numbers and profits etc. Still think it would behoove Hopkins to make replicas of these jerseys - either no number at all or pick a number that hasn't been used and won't be.
how about 44? nod to the tradition, emphasizing the post-civil war days. added bonus of tweaking 'cuse fans. and reading the thread, should be good for a while.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby jhu06 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:51 am

The wing on the helmet was first used in 2011. The jerseys changed because Under Armour not nike is now the apparel supplier of the program. I'm fine with a fresh start for the uniform.
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2018

New postby 44WeWantMore on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:57 am

I'm in.
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