Florida State to add lax program?

Florida State to add lax program?

New postby Bluejay-fan on Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:53 pm

Pretty good read from College Crosse if anyone is looking for offseason content.

https://www.collegecrosse.com/2018/7/9/ ... n-thrasher
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HHS '64 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:42 am

That’s interesting, and Florida is certainly becoming a more lacrosse-centric state. Moreover, a sixth ACC competitor would certainly provide advantages. However, as the article indicates, FSU must resolve any possible Title IX issues and, of course, the potential costs associated with two new programs would not be trivial. Significantly, several major football and/or basketball powerhouse universities have actually eliminated some non-revenue teams, thereby increasing the profitability of their aggregate intercollegiate athletic operations.


https://www.twincities.com/2014/08/10/w ... in-danger/

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... story.html

https://nypost.com/2013/12/28/colleges- ... up-at-all/
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby Cooter on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:57 pm

It would be nice to see FSU add lacrosse and get the ACC an AQ, which would then open up one more at-large spot.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby Speed and Agility on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:01 pm

They need to find a big money donor who can fund both a men's and women's team in order to make this happen.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HowieT3 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:58 pm

Speed and Agility wrote:They need to find a big money donor who can fund both a men's and women's team in order to make this happen.

They already have one. This is old news resurfacing. There was a thread on this a couple of years ago. FSU’s problem all along has been getting their Title IX numbers to work.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HawkBall on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:15 am

FSU should end the mens tennis program. Half of the players on the roster are foreigners anyways. That could help balance out the Title 9 Issue.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby CHCfan1976 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:17 am

HawkBall - have to assume you are kidding. FSU tennis finished this year ranked #11 in the country with a 28-5 record. No way FSU drops men's tennis.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HawkBall on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:31 am

I know they're good but so what? Does anyone really pay attention to college tennis? Or mens gymnastics? I assume they are good at golf too but what does it really do to raise the profile of either golf or the university? When adding a men's sport to the portfolio, it's a battle amongst sports for the best fit. Some sports, particularly individual sports, are best left out of college sports all together. Lacrosse is a great collegiate sport. If anyone has ever watched college tennis or golf on TV please raise your hand.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby CHCfan1976 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:51 am

There are roughly 18 million tennis players in the US and around 830,00 lacrosse players. What sport is more popular?
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby SClaxattack on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:01 pm

I also wondered how much alumni and fan support tennis might have at FSU - evidently a lot. They have both indoor and outdoor tennis facilities, and their outdoor Speicher Tennis Center has permanent seating for 1000. Last year 17 of the men’s 33 matches were played at home, compared to what might be 6 or 7 home games if they had men’s lacrosse.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HHS '64 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:23 pm

HawkBall wrote:I know they're good but so what? Does anyone really pay attention to college tennis? Or mens gymnastics? I assume they are good at golf too but what does it really do to raise the profile of either golf or the university? When adding a men's sport to the portfolio, it's a battle amongst sports for the best fit. Some sports, particularly individual sports, are best left out of college sports all together. Lacrosse is a great collegiate sport. If anyone has ever watched college tennis or golf on TV please raise your hand.




Well, HawkBall, I’ve always believed that universities were principally concerned with EDUCATION — not with the “sizzle factor” associated with highly visible intercollegiate athletics, nor with the concomitant revenues football and basketball generate, nor with the resultant extensive media coverage, nor with the engendered alumni/booster institutional loyalty, but with EDUCATION. Of course, a GREAT deal of highly valuable undergraduate learning occurs beyond the classroom, the laboratory or the library, and MUCH of that can be achieved through participation in athletics. Discipline, self-sacrifice, teamwork, perseverance, integrity, tenacity, graceful winning and losing, leadership as well as “followership,” playing within established rules, and a good deal more are the crux of competitive sports. Moreover, these are absolutely crucial life-skills. Consequentially, I’d respectfully suggest that long after an understanding of double declining balance depreciation, or of the reasons for the failure of the of the Weimar Republic, or of effects of maximum dynamic pressure on an air vehicle, or literally of hundreds of thousands of other matters has ceased to be important to our annual harvest of undergraduates, the aforementioned character attributes will remain utterly critical.

As I’m sure you’re aware, the vast majority of intercollegiate athletes compete in less conspicuous, non-revenue sport such as tennis, golf, swimming, gymnastics, track and field, wrestling, fencing, field hockey, and MANY others. In fact, well over 95 percent of our college athletes (all NCAA Divisions) play other than football and basketball.

Since the core mission of universities is to teach, isn’t the learning provided to the student-athletes through the sports you deride every bit as important as it is to the handful of players in the sports you evidently sanction?

Perhaps you may wish to reconsider your myopic position?
Last edited by HHS '64 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HawkBall on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:52 pm

HHS, Point well taken. I lost sight of the fact that athletics departments and universities as a whole are not big business.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby wgdsr on Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:12 pm

HowieT3 wrote:
Speed and Agility wrote:They need to find a big money donor who can fund both a men's and women's team in order to make this happen.

They already have one. This is old news resurfacing. There was a thread on this a couple of years ago. FSU’s problem all along has been getting their Title IX numbers to work.

the issue with most all big money football schools is the want-to. imo.
does the athletic administration want to bring on more sports? "olympic" sports. or are they more satisfied to keep it lean, s.e.c. style.
football. baseball. basketball. what kind of athletic department do you want to run?

if ever an a.d. wants lacrosse (or in f.s.u.'s case --- soccer, or even beach volleyball), they'll have it. it often would take adding women's stuff and spending a little of the energy and money that's otherwise going to supporting your cronies, office suites, shin-digs and money makers.

or just play food-bahl. see you on saturday.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby Bluejay-fan on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:48 pm

HHS '64 wrote:However, as the article indicates, FSU must resolve any possible Title IX issues and, of course, the potential costs associated with two new programs would not be trivial.


Indeed, HHS. As Director Wilcox's statements highlight in his unearthed 2015 email to an alum wishing to help add men's soccer at FSU, mutually exclusive of the alum/FSU's desire to add men's soccer, the school already was "tentatively" planning on adding women's lacrosse in 4-5 years (2019-2020) to comply with Title IX because of their (at the time) female student-athlete participation rates. So if FSU wanted to add men's soccer (at least in 2015) it would've meant that FSU would've had to add at least one other women's program, aside from women's soccer (which would've been added alongside the hypothetical men's team) & women's lacrosse (which was already "tentatively" in the works).

The one interesting thing is that, FSU added women's beach volleyball in 2012 and the NCAA recognized it as a sport in 2016 (Link: http://seminolesweb-8b76.kxcdn.com/wp-c ... ll-PDF.pdf). Maybe Title IX issues at FSU aren't as pressing as they were in 2015, which could help the calculus in adding both a women's and a men's lacrosse program at FSU. If FSU is presently compliant with Title IX, FSU could add a women's program in a year or two, subsequently add a men's program shortly thereafter, and not have to add an additional women's program because they added men's lacrosse. The emails show that Florida State has a growing group of lax-loving alums ready & willing to give money to make both programs happen, which wasn't a reality back in 2015 or even a couple years ago, so getting both programs up and running at FSU might not be as arduous as it was in the past. As the article states, given the context of the emails, President Thrasher's comments seem more like a signal to alums who are interested in the school getting a lacrosse team, that the school was actually serious about it now as well. We might have FSU's beach volleyball team to thank for unlocking the door to a 6th ACC men's lacrosse program in the next few years.

The CBS affiliate down in Tallahassee did a post and a podcast about the CC article/the possibility of FSU lacrosse.
Article: http://www.wctv.tv/content/news/Report- ... 34841.html
Podcast: http://www.wctv.tv/content/news/PODCAST ... 44111.html (Lax talk begins around the 24 minute mark)

Additionally, the Tallahassee Democrat (part of the USA Today Network) also did a post about the CC article/FSU Lacrosse.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/sport ... 771014002/
In TD article they mention an interview they did with Director Wilcox last month where he discussed how FSU would like to add a women's team soon but never mentioned lacrosse. Director Wilcox did mention how pleased he was with how well the women's beach volleyball team had done in a very short period of time and said he would like to replicate that in whatever women's program came next. If one uses the University of Florida women's lacrosse team as a model, it is reasonable to think a FSU women's lacrosse team would have a similar level of success as UF. (8 NCAA Tournament trips, 5 Elite 8 appearances, and one Final Four in 9 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_G ... s_lacrosse.) Given the fact that an FSU women's lacrosse team would play in the ACC with its natural rivals as opposed to UF who plays in the Big East and it is not unreasonable to think that a FSU women's lacrosse team could really take off.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby Homer on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:24 pm

Having read the College Crosse article, I see nothing in it to suggest that FSU administration has any intention of adding men's lacrosse for the foreseeable future.

In a nutshell, my reading of what can be gleaned from the emails is:

1. FSU wants to add wlax (probably ultimately for compliance reasons).
2. Some FSU boosters want FSU to add mlax (and/or msoccer).
3. FSU is trying to see if they can pull off the trick of extracting donations to start wlax from boosters who mostly care about mlax (and/or msoccer).

#1 and #2 are not really news. #3 does theoretically leave open the possibility of a moonshot deal where the donors lay down enough to make three new women's teams ... and then if the mlax guys outbid the msoccer guys then I guess maybe you get mlax. But that's not really news either -- somebody could always theoretically come in and dump a giant bag of money on the situation. I don't see any sign from the emails that's what's happening.

Bluejay-fan wrote:The one interesting thing is that, FSU added women's beach volleyball in 2012 and the NCAA recognized it as a sport in 2016 (Link: http://seminolesweb-8b76.kxcdn.com/wp-c ... ll-PDF.pdf). Maybe Title IX issues at FSU aren't as pressing as they were in 2015, which could help the calculus in adding both a women's and a men's lacrosse program at FSU. If FSU is presently compliant with Title IX, FSU could add a women's program in a year or two, subsequently add a men's program shortly thereafter, and not have to add an additional women's program because they added men's lacrosse.


Oh, but they aren't. They're not close. They're not even close to close. If by "complaint" you mean "proportional." Florida State has 44% male enrollment and 57% male athletes. This includes beach volleyball. Of course, there are other ways to be compliant. The relevant one here is to be "continually expanding opportunities for the underrepresented gender," i.e., new additions of women's sports in dribs and drabs over time. Like, say, beach volleyball in 2012 and lacrosse in 2020.

So far as all this goes, nothing has changed since 2015. How do I know that? Because when the current prospective donor starts asking about mlax, Wilcox literally asks Fuchs if she can pull up the email to Msoccer Guy from 2015 to copy-paste. Rinse and repeat, nothing doing.
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby DFW Hoya on Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:54 am

Cooter wrote:It would be nice to see FSU add lacrosse and get the ACC an AQ, which would then open up one more at-large spot.


Boston College used to play Div. I varsity lacrosse and now plays club. They could upgrade a lot quicker.

https://www.bcmensclublacrosse.com/
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HHS '64 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:01 am

@DFW Hoya: The thought of BC becoming the ACC’s sixth Men’s Lacrosse Team has been rumbling around for some years, but — unfortunately — I am unaware of any expression of support from decision-makers or -influencers on Chestnut Hill. Similarly, Wake, NC State, and (obviously) FSU have well established, intercollegiate “club” lacrosse programs. However:
1. Title IX constraints:
2. Major financial challenges;
3. “Lax Bro” cultural concerns (I do absolutely not suggest these are valid or reasonable, but in a higher educational environment where senior officials routinely accede to snowflake pleas for safe spaces, trigger warnings, and the exclusion of certain legitimate viewpoints from civil, open and forthright on-campus debate — foolishly, I thought universities were the ideal venue for fact-based discussion of major issues — I’m fairly convinced that concerns re Men’s Lacrosse’s perceived elitism, white male privilege, entitlement, arrogant and boorish comportment, and so forth would potentially be a silent but consequential evaluation factor).
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby 44WeWantMore on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:46 am

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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby Lax Fidelis on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:50 am

^^ Perhaps HHS '64 should have written "unspoken"?
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Re: Florida State to add lax program?

New postby HHS '64 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:04 pm

44WeWantMore wrote:Silent?


Yeah, “silent;” when senior administrators and/or tenured faculty members are opposed to something at “their” university, it’s rare that there is any public awareness or open discussion. To do so would be to invite financial, political, media, alumni and other “fallout.” Instead, peer pressure “whispering” is the norm. Of course, this often prevents the issue from even becoming an agenda item for Trustees/Regents/Visitors evaluation (these Boards are generally the institutions’ accountable decision makers, as stipulated in governance documentation).
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