60-Second Shot Clock

Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby TopShelf585 on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:58 am

Erza you lost me when you started talking about baseball.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Typical Lax Dad on Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:25 am

Ezra White wrote:Regarding Cusemaxer's comment on 2-way vs 1-way middies: before 1-way mids became common, teams would have anywhere from 2 to 4 midfield lines, and they would substitute much the same way as forward lines are substituted in hockey. But because the middies were 2-way, substitution wasn't as urgent after a clear. Instead, substitution almost always was during a stoppage, and therefore did not slow down the game.

So I think your concern about 2-way mids being winded is not that justified. Of course, if a coach keeps the first line out for an extended period, the line might become gassed. But this already happens now at all positions even though 1-way mids are the rule. A more serious concern is that elite teams might be able to field as many as 4 very good lines, while weaker teams might have trouble fielding even two.

Your point about the skills of, e.g., ssdms is a good one. But it simply boils down to what one appreciates most about not only lacrosse but sports in general. Would you rather see (or be) a specialist who gets an A or A+ in one aspect of the game or more of a generalist, who still might be A or A+ in one aspect, but strives to be at least B or B+ in all relevant aspects?

It's like AL vs NL baseball. Do you want a team including of a designated hitter who bats over .300, a HOF fielder who bats .230, and pitchers who don't bat at all or a team of good to very good fielders who average about .275 except for the pitchers, who bat at around .225?


How many middie lines are there in the MLL with its 60 second shot clock? Two O lines and a defensive middie line. The substitution pattern is similar to college but the ball clears quicker. Some college teams subsitute on the clear. This thing about teams burning 20 - 30 seconds to make substitutions is not true. I may happen on occasion. Some teams are slow to sub to see it they can get something off of 5 v 5.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby genghiskhanbluejay on Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:01 pm

They should add a penalty shot if a defensive player intentionally fouls to prevent a shot on goal opportunity late in a game.
Under 10 seconds any team that's up by 1 should just tackle the offensive player who has the ball. Penalty shot would prevent that from happening and it would be exciting to watch a one on one penalty shot if it did happen.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby LBlaser41 on Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:17 pm

Some teams burn up to 45 seconds+ to substitute...worse part of the men's game, IMHO, is the musical chair substitutions through the midfield line after the ball is cleared. Game essentially comes to a screeching halt. Although, some teams use the midfield substitution pattern to generate uneven situations...it's goofy, but often effective!
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Typical Lax Dad on Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:34 pm

LBlaser41 wrote:Some teams burn up to 45 seconds+ to substitute...worse part of the men's game, IMHO, is the musical chair substitutions through the midfield line after the ball is cleared. Game essentially comes to a screeching halt. Although, some teams use the midfield substitution pattern to generate uneven situations...it's goofy, but often effective!


I have never seen a team take 45 seconds to make substitutions. Link a video if you can. It can take a player 45 seconds or more to get to the mid field line or to the box?
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Cooter on Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:48 pm

genghiskhanbluejay wrote:They should add a penalty shot if a defensive player intentionally fouls to prevent a shot on goal opportunity late in a game.
Under 10 seconds any team that's up by 1 should just tackle the offensive player who has the ball. Penalty shot would prevent that from happening and it would be exciting to watch a one on one penalty shot if it did happen.


Maybe they could add extra time to the clock like in Soccer.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Typical Lax Dad on Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:52 pm



A basic substitution pattern. Look at how much time runs off the clock when the FOGO runs off.....
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Mdbhound25 on Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:10 pm

45 seconds is definitely the exception. And great point earlier around depth on middie line being a major problem vs traditional powerhouse schools for the middle to bottom third of teams in D1 if aggressive shot clock implemented.

Seems to me there could be some unintended consequences to a shorter shot clock. Guessing coaches will pull their LSM and D/ transition middies more quickly to get their offensive guys on the field reducing transition or unsettled situations. Also inside finishers may have to step aside for outside shooters as teams don’t push out as aggressive with less need to cause TOs. Big Midfield dodgers may start moving to attack and on and on.

Bottom line is that the game isn’t broken and more players than ever in more places outside of LI are picking up sticks instead of gloves. Why reduce the # of kids/ athletes with rule changes that would make the teams more uniform?
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby CHCfan1976 on Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:19 pm

Cooter wrote:
genghiskhanbluejay wrote:They should add a penalty shot if a defensive player intentionally fouls to prevent a shot on goal opportunity late in a game.
Under 10 seconds any team that's up by 1 should just tackle the offensive player who has the ball. Penalty shot would prevent that from happening and it would be exciting to watch a one on one penalty shot if it did happen.


Maybe they could add extra time to the clock like in Soccer.


I know what you are saying, but isn't the purpose of the shot clock to remove any subjective assessment by the officials? Soccer would be a better sport if the allowed substitutions like lacrosse :)
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby SClaxattack on Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:10 pm

CHCfan1976 wrote:
Cooter wrote:
genghiskhanbluejay wrote:They should add a penalty shot if a defensive player intentionally fouls to prevent a shot on goal opportunity late in a game.
Under 10 seconds any team that's up by 1 should just tackle the offensive player who has the ball. Penalty shot would prevent that from happening and it would be exciting to watch a one on one penalty shot if it did happen.


Maybe they could add extra time to the clock like in Soccer.


I know what you are saying, but isn't the purpose of the shot clock to remove any subjective assessment by the officials? Soccer would be a better sport if the allowed substitutions like lacrosse :)


Once again, implementing ANOTHER game rule or penalty to counteract a flaw that will be created once coaches start game planning for a shot clock.

I’m telling you, we must all be idiots; especially those on the rules committee if this abomination goes through.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby youthathletics on Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:31 pm

Subjectivity is in every sport. Strike zone in baseball , holding, pass interference, a catch in football, contacts charge, in hoops, slide tackle in soccer, double hit in volleyball, on and on.

The arguement of subjectivity by the ref for the stall is a tactic of those arguing FOR the shot clock. And to be clear, if not mistaken, the mechanics are two to three refs acknowledging it is time.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby LBlaser41 on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:15 pm

Mdbhound25 wrote:45 seconds is definitely the exception. And great point earlier around depth on middie line being a major problem vs traditional powerhouse schools for the middle to bottom third of teams in D1 if aggressive shot clock implemented.

Seems to me there could be some unintended consequences to a shorter shot clock. Guessing coaches will pull their LSM and D/ transition middies more quickly to get their offensive guys on the field reducing transition or unsettled situations. Also inside finishers may have to step aside for outside shooters as teams don’t push out as aggressive with less need to cause TOs. Big Midfield dodgers may start moving to attack and on and on.

Bottom line is that the game isn’t broken and more players than ever in more places outside of LI are picking up sticks instead of gloves. Why reduce the # of kids/ athletes with rule changes that would make the teams more uniform?


You guys have never seen the pole play cat-n-mouse with offensive short-stick who rode over and is now caught on D? I think I see it happen every game, and the pole will often stay on offense for awhile to keep the O middie out there...maybe it's more prevalent in D2 which I see a lot of...
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Typical Lax Dad on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:47 pm

LBlaser41 wrote:
Mdbhound25 wrote:45 seconds is definitely the exception. And great point earlier around depth on middie line being a major problem vs traditional powerhouse schools for the middle to bottom third of teams in D1 if aggressive shot clock implemented.

Seems to me there could be some unintended consequences to a shorter shot clock. Guessing coaches will pull their LSM and D/ transition middies more quickly to get their offensive guys on the field reducing transition or unsettled situations. Also inside finishers may have to step aside for outside shooters as teams don’t push out as aggressive with less need to cause TOs. Big Midfield dodgers may start moving to attack and on and on.

Bottom line is that the game isn’t broken and more players than ever in more places outside of LI are picking up sticks instead of gloves. Why reduce the # of kids/ athletes with rule changes that would make the teams more uniform?


You guys have never seen the pole play cat-n-mouse with offensive short-stick who rode over and is now caught on D? I think I see it happen every game, and the pole will often stay on offense for awhile to keep the O middie out there...maybe it's more prevalent in D2 which I see a lot of...


The offense is looking to play 5 v 5. If the coach wanted the pole off, he would get off. A lot of subbing takes place on the clear. If the pole was holding up the offense the coach would tell him to get his *ss off the field. It would not keep happening. The other thing the 60 second clock will kill is the inverted middie or the two man game with middies behind the goal because you don't want to have two attackman having to run across the midfield line if they get caught with a short clock.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby HooDat on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:07 am

SClaxattack wrote:
CHCfan1976 wrote:
Cooter wrote:
genghiskhanbluejay wrote:They should add a penalty shot if a defensive player intentionally fouls to prevent a shot on goal opportunity late in a game.
Under 10 seconds any team that's up by 1 should just tackle the offensive player who has the ball. Penalty shot would prevent that from happening and it would be exciting to watch a one on one penalty shot if it did happen.


Maybe they could add extra time to the clock like in Soccer.


I know what you are saying, but isn't the purpose of the shot clock to remove any subjective assessment by the officials? Soccer would be a better sport if the allowed substitutions like lacrosse :)


Once again, implementing ANOTHER game rule or penalty to counteract a flaw that will be created once coaches start game planning for a shot clock.

I’m telling you, we must all be idiots; especially those on the rules committee if this abomination goes through.

You are SOOOO right. Can we just not. Why can't we stop tinkering with the game? It has been around since before Europeans got to the continent - I think we can leave it alone now......
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby LBlaser41 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:08 pm

I talk to a lot of coaches and 5v5 is not something they scheme for---this is why shutting off a player can still be effective(ask Cornell). The pole with stay on O and sometimes set a pick but more often than not he tries to sub through the midfield line and allow is middie to get a couple of steps on the trailing d-middie.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby fattylax on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:10 pm

youthathletics wrote:Subjectivity is in every sport. Strike zone in baseball , holding, pass interference, a catch in football, contacts charge, in hoops, slide tackle in soccer, double hit in volleyball, on and on.

The arguement of subjectivity by the ref for the stall is a tactic of those arguing FOR the shot clock. And to be clear, if not mistaken, the mechanics are two to three refs acknowledging it is time.

pages earlier, it was made apparent that consistency was lacking, from game to game and crew to crew. The last 10 seconds of the 30 second clear count is still human, no? Wanna take a guess as to how many times the whistle is blown at 7 or 8 seconds?

on CTO's.......attempts vs success. And what determines success? A bad pass or shot by a poke check, but the offensive teams picks up or back up the ball? MLL...the ball is on the ground tons. WHy?
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Typical Lax Dad on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:12 pm

Watch Maryland tape from last couple of years.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby LBlaser41 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:31 pm

Shouldn't we hear something soon??
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby arealax on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm

From Paul Rabil

Congratulations college lacrosse. 20 seconds to get over the equator, then a 60-second shot clock will begin. Any reset (save, pipe, defensive infraction) will reset to 60. Cleaner than having 90 seconds of running clock. Excited to watch. We just got better.
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Re: 60-Second Shot Clock

New postby Typical Lax Dad on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm

LBlaser41 wrote:Shouldn't we hear something soon??


Looks like it has passed....152 for 139 against.
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