WSJ Article on Lax and Net Revenue per School

[call me Johnson]

Depressing statistics ggait, but I believe you just illustrated exactly what Coach Paul was talking about. Realist20 is a lacrosse fan. He sees the situation through rose-colored glasses. His impression is that college baseball attendance pales in comparison to lacrosse. In fact, baseball still has a big lead (and the college world series, which is a very drawn out event that involves a lot of weekday games does very well too).

Of course lacrosse is better to watch. Of course it's growing fast. We all agree. The reality that none of us want to admit is that lacrosse is still a very small niche sport and has a long, long way to go to catch up to other "minor" college sports that have had more participation for much longer (baseball, hockey, soccer), much less pass them by.

[ggait]

I'm a lax fan too, and it is easy to be carried away when you see the big crowds on Memorial Day. But lacrosse is still fairly small despite its hot growth.

Lacrosse today at every level (youth, HS, college, pro) is probably where soccer was about 25 years ago.

[Mr T]

The reality that none of us want to admit is that lacrosse is still a very small niche sport and has a long, long way to go to catch up to other "minor" college sports that have had more participation for much longer (baseball, hockey, soccer), much less pass them by.

Someone made a Google map of D-1 programs.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&m ... d2536deb75

Program concentration is really pronounced and perhaps demonstrates to some extent the niche aspect of the sport.

[jhuck-80]

Depressing statistics ggait, but I believe you just illustrated exactly what Coach Paul was talking about. Realist20 is a lacrosse fan. He sees the situation through rose-colored glasses. His impression is that college baseball attendance pales in comparison to lacrosse. In fact, baseball still has a big lead (and the college world series, which is a very drawn out event that involves a lot of weekday games does very well too).

Of course lacrosse is better to watch. Of course it's growing fast. We all agree. The reality that none of us want to admit is that lacrosse is still a very small niche sport and has a long, long way to go to catch up to other "minor" college sports that have had more participation for much longer (baseball, hockey, soccer), much less pass them by.

I suppose that I would feel differently if I lived in Colorado or Texas or North Carolina or some other place where there has been an explosion of youth and high school lacrosse, but for me, I cannot get that worked up about the lack of growth of D1 lacrosse or its status as a "niche" sport. My only regret in that regard is that the explosive growth in high schools has meant that kids who grew up playing the game in MD or NY have a much more difficult time playing at the traditional D1 schools than they did when I graduated from high school over 30 years ago. Now, those same kids play D3 instead.*

Otherwise, I kind of like the game as it is. I like the fact that I can always find a friend or acquaintance in the stands no matter what D1 game I go to. I like the fact that I go to games and look at the rosters and say, "hey, I know that kid's father. He kicked the crap out of me in high school!"

My gripe about lacrosse used to be that the only way to see it was in person. Now, pretty much everyone anywhere can watch games in some form, if they really care to. And there are places like Laxpower where we can discuss the game, no matter where we live. Which means, for me, the only real thing to complain about are bad calls by refs, and that's part of the fun anyway.

I can understand why many people want to see expansive growth in the D1 game, but my advice is to be careful what you wish for. If D1 lacrosse ever becomes what D1 football or basketball are, I may have to resort to following rugby again.




*A very parochial concern, I know. And clearly there is nothing wrong with playing D3: I think both of my sons are heading in that direction, and I couldn't be happier.

[stillcreasebeast]

I think it is obvious that D1 overall is better than D3 and that D3 overall is better than club. I think it is also obvious that the lower reaches of the upper levels overlap to some extent with the upper reaches of the lower levels. Does VMI lacrosse have more in common with UVA lacrosse or with W&L lacrosse?

If you use the Laxpower formula; is there value in comparing a 56th ranked D-1 team to the `15th ranked D-3 team? This year VMI did beat W&L in fall ball - that's the exception rather than the rule. Additionally this example plucks out two unusual schools. VMI as a State military school and W&L the toughest D-3 academic lax school in the South. They are very cordial neighbors though.

I think it is obvious that D1 overall is better than D3 and that D3 overall is better than club.
I'm sure there's lots of variation from the top of the MCLA to the MCLA bottom. The key point about MCLA lacrosse, though, is that it bears no resemblance (at least at the top level) to your traditional college "club" sports like ultimate frisbee or rugby. The top MCLA teams go 5 or 6 days a week in the fall, have paid coaches, multiple road trips, recruiting and players who were all-state (and sometimes all-American) in high school.

Just a follow-up Denison beat Michigan in a 4quarter (20 minutes per, running clock) fall ball game 10-5.


I'm a fan of seeing more D-1 schools carry mens lax as a varsity sport. Lax ain't soccer(does anyone know what college soccer attendance is?). Every HS in NJ had soccer 30 years ago. Lax has doubled to 167 high schools in the past 10 years. Soccer has greatly expanded at the youth level and club level. Lax is catching up there too. I believe Lacrosse will continue beyond soccer's growth curve because of it's appeal to North Americans as local game that is physical, fast and high scoring.

[ggait]

"I'm a fan of seeing more D-1 schools carry mens lax as a varsity sport. Lax ain't soccer(does anyone know what college soccer attendance is?)."

I am with you about watching soccer vs lacrosse. Question: Why do so many American kids play soccer? Answer: Because if they play soccer then they won't have to watch it!

The NCAA website has all the attendance figures for the various sports. I took a look at UVA's attendance figures for mens lax, mens soccer and baseball. UVA is good in all those sports and so I think their attendance figures give a glimpse of the relative levels of interest/importance of the three sports at the D1 college level.

UVA averaged 2700 fans for 8 home lax games. Averaged 1860 fans for 12 home soccer games. Averaged 1585 for 37 home baseball games. I'd say that lacrosse is doing pretty well where it is played. But unlike soccer and baseball, lacrosse isn't yet played everywhere. And as J Huck points out, there are some positive aspects to lax still being mostly a niche/regional sport.

[call me Johnson]

And as J Huck points out, there are some positive aspects to lax still being mostly a niche/regional sport.

True, but those positive aspects mostly benefit those who have always enjoyed the advantages of having the sport concentrated in their regions. It's easy to say "I like it as it is" if you live in Baltimore. What is a lacrosse fan who is jonesing for live D1 lacrosse to do if he lives in Arizona or Illinois? What is a D1 lacrosse recruit with modest means and a 2.8 GPA who lives in those areas to do?

I think jhuck is being a bit selfish here. The game is growing at every level except D1 men at an astonishing rate. That is the only segment that is not really keeping up, and that lack of growth is due to outside factors (AD interest as Coach Paul suggested, Title IX, etc.). Eventually those outside factors will be overcome and the men's D1 game will start growing to match what is happening in youth, high school and even college lacrosse (in other divisions) across the country.

I have no concern that lacrosse is going to become like D1 football or basketball in our lifetimes and probably ever. The influences of multi-billion dollar sports industries, 100 years of coast-to-coast American cultural engagement, and accessibility to lower-income rural and inner-city participants and dreamers, makes those sports unique. Lacrosse will never get there.

What jhuck enjoys about the game will always exist. Lacrosse is so embedded in the Baltimore culture, I can't see that ever changing dramatically. There will always be a lot of very good high school teams and a smattering of very good D1 teams within an hour radius of each other, probably centered somewhere around Charles and W University Pkwy. Don't worry jhuck. The game won't lose its charm.

[ggait]

Here's one more cut on the data, this time using the NFHS info on the Laxpower home page.

At the high school level (2009 data), boys soccer is 4 to 5 times bigger (in terms of teams and players) than lacrosse. HS baseball is 5 to 8 times bigger than lacrosse. Baseball and soccer are flat while lax is growing.

The consensus seems to be that there will have to be many more years of lax growth before the needle moves much at the BCS D1 level. But it will eventually move.

[Regularjesus]

But that's how they give female cheerleaders athletic scholarships.

Only Oregon and Maryland have Varsity Cheer. It is not an NCAA recognized sport. They are the only ones giving scholarships to cheerleaders. At Oregon, Competitive Cheer is completely separate organization from the eye candy that cheers the football team. So technically, they don't 'cheer' for anyone. Kinda defeats the purpose....

Side note: Oregon, which already has women's lacrosse, also chose to cut men's wrestling, and then added.....men's baseball. they could easily have chosen men's lacrosse, but they wanted Baseball because it is widely played in the Pac10. However, the same reasoning was not used in the decision to add Competitive Cheer.

Seriously though I won't call club lax a joke - but pleaseee.

I watched Lehigh ( not in Laxpower's top 40) handle LeMoyne (a D-2 power) last weekend. I've a son play for a D-3 quarter finalist & Lehigh would wallop that team. Lehigh is non-scholarship; but they are D-1. D-1 is where the best lax is played. Club, D-3 & 2, will never be top lax - period.

No other sport has this debate, comparing club, DI, DII and DIII and saying they're all equal and the lacrosse world is chock full of parity. Why are we even holding this discussion? Other sports - basketball as an example - have DI, DII and DIII and they don't have these types of debates. They just accept that there are multiple opportunities to play the sport, and athletes will choose based on their talents, grades, and what they want to get out of the college basketball experience. The same applies to lacrosse.

[Regularjesus]

What is a D1 lacrosse recruit with modest means and a 2.8 GPA who lives in those areas to do?

Go to JUCO. Anyone with a 2.8 GPA is dreaming if he thinks he's DI material, doubtful he'd pass academic muster to get in, and once there, would flounder in the classroom.

[Newton White]

...
True, but those positive aspects mostly benefit those who have always enjoyed the advantages of having the sport concentrated in their regions. It's easy to say "I like it as it is" if you live in Baltimore. What is a lacrosse fan who is jonesing for live D1 lacrosse to do if he lives in Arizona or Illinois? What is a D1 lacrosse recruit with modest means and a 2.8 GPA who lives in those areas to do?
...

Wow. Hard to imagine a more trivial argument for D1 expansion. Jonesing for live D1 lacrosse? If coach Paul's read on the state of the game is correct, there aren't many of those people out there.

And please, let's not perpetuate the "athletic scholarship as a means of affording a college education" myth. If you have a 2.8 GPA and modest means, GO TO YOUR STATE UNIVERSITY! It's the best bargain available.

[jhu6569]

Check LP archives by searching for college baseball vs college lacrosse regarding attendance! At least every other year this topic has been hashed to death - bottom line - nationwide, college baseball FAR outreaches college lacrosse in simple attendance figures. In DI alone, SEC, ACC, Pac-10 and southern division of the Big 12 have at least some MAJOR contenders every year for a NCAA basball title. Big-10 always in the mix as well somehow. AS are more minor conferences, like those with Fresno or almost any other California State system school. Also, teams like Louisiana Lafayette, East Carolina, Richmond Spiders, etc. etc. etc. Not so much recently, but traditionally, the Orono Maine Black Bears! I could continue: Creighton, as an example. (HAD to get Blue Jays into this post somehow, someway!!!! ) Sorry, but planned.

Over-riding permeation of collegiate baseball, at all levels involved in the NCAA title chase? A much more interesting deal that that encountered with college lacrosse.

Please note, however, that I myself do not necessarily believe that attendance figures accurately reflect the future of any particular sport at the college level.

[Regularjesus]

I don't think 'butts in seats' is a good way to measure the legitimacy of a sport, or whether it deserves to be kept at the varsity level over another sport. Some sports are not spectator friendly. And frankly, why should we care? As John Paul noted, butts in seats have nothing to do with getting his sport elevated to varsity status. He is at a school with men's sports that are institutionally entrenched, and a rising population of women attending college that require more sports opportunities for women.

I think we have to go back to the original reason to have varsity sports at any university. Oxford introduced rowing in the late 1700's and Eton introduced it to school boys in 1806. Yale founded their rowing club in 1843, and Harvard followed in 1844. The first intercollegiate sporting event in America book place in 1852 when the Harvard-Yale duel meet regatta began.

The whole concept of attending college is to advance your education, expand your mind and improve your character. Sports were thought to improve both character and health, and of course, the Americans wanted to ape the English Oxford-Cambridge "blues" regatta.

Improving character and health have nothing to do with 'butts in seats'.

[longtimelaxer]

There is hope for D1 men’s lacrosse but it will not happen overnight. Like we would all like. You have to walk before you can run.

1. It starts with the youth system and it is going to take awhile to build numbers. Youth lacrosse is growing across the country. There are kids from CA, CO, OH & TN on D1 programs. Would there have been 8-10 years ago? There is now a Top 205 in Denver. It will not happen overnight but the numbers will grow.
2. The D1 lacrosse championships are a big money maker for the NCAA. After the basketball championships I think lacrosse has the highest attendance and they make a nice chunk of change. Money talks in the NCAA offices.
3. D1 is getting TV time. It was only a few years ago, the only game on TV was the championship. There was a game on pretty much game every weekend last season.
4. Title 9 is a fact of life and this might sound funny but I think women will have more of an impact on changing it. There are a lot of mothers who benefitted from Title 9 who are now seeing there sons denied the same opportunities.
5. Finally there is nothing you can do about Football and Basketball while the budgets are high, the money they bring in from the Alumni is huge. We need some of our Wall Street boys to start dropping large donations.

[ggait]

2. The D1 lacrosse championships are a big money maker for the NCAA. After the basketball championships I think lacrosse has the highest attendance and they make a nice chunk of change. Money talks in the NCAA offices.

Not so much. Like many things about lax, the lax final four is not as big a deal as lax fans think it is.

The BCS championship game is the biggest by far, but that isn't an NCAA sanctioned championship. The 45 to 50k people that attend a D1 lax final four session is second in attendance to the hoops final four for a single game/session. But the total attendance (since there are more games played) and money made by the college world series is way bigger than lax. About 350k people go to the CWS games in Omaha.

I don't know what the TV ratings are, but the CWS (and even the college softball world series) is on ESPN for like a week solid. Looks like the Frozen Four is much bigger too.

2006-07 NCAA DIVISION I CHAMPIONSHIPS
Top 10 Gross Receipts

1. Men’s Basketball $35,604,260
2. Baseball 9,552,936
3. Men’s Ice Hockey 7,073,071
4. Football (FCS) 2,974,394
5. Women’s Basketball 2,569,252
6. Men’s Lacrosse 2,271,174
7. Wrestling 1,735,481
8. Volleyball 1,529,769
9. Softball 1,052,643
10. Men’s Soccer 668,446

[jhu6569]

Deja vu, ggait! As I posted above, this point HAS been hammered down season after season - although, I admit, usually just before or just after the Lax Final Four.

But, ggait! - your provided statistics are a new twist to the debate and are, therefore, most welcome. Thanks. I do love lacrosse, but trying to claim that the NCAA (or the individual participating colleges/universities) garner(s)more money from men's/women's lacrosse versus NCAA men's baseball is simply a losing debate proposition.