The Obama Era

[a fan]

Oh, and I should add that I don't think that this Health care "reform" is going to help anyone, poor, or otherwise. It's pretty sad. Maybe I'm reading the wrong summaries, though.

[Baldo]

They DO realize it. That's why they're not willing to pick up the tab for all the non-payers medical care. Same reason so many don't expect Soc Security to be around, or paying them at same level, when they qualify.
Post Madoff, Ponzi scheme knowledge has gone up.

Not quite. We are all paying for the non-payers NOW as the cost of their treatment when they get sick and go to an ER is mandated by Reagan Era law.

I don't know about you but my health insurance is going up double digits unless I agree to bear more of the cost of treatment to the tune of a higher deductible and co-insurance...like in the old FRAM commercials - you can pay me now or you can pay me later. If I take the higher deductible plan I pay the double digit increase effectively anyway. I suspect there will be yet another double digit increase waiting for me in 2011, too.

I'd be willing to listen to a credible alternative plan but this idea that we don't need to do anything is absurd on its face.

[sore+old]

As far as gov't takeover, I've even heard Rahm Emanuel and other Dems talk openly about the "Public Option" as the first step to Universal HC.

Please provide a source and quote where these "statements" were made. Glenn Beck, El Rushbo don't count.

I heard the world may end in 2012 but that does not mean its going to.

And your source is a promise from Pelosi and Reid?? Pleease! Maybe Olbermann or Maddow perhaps.

[2badknees]

Baldo observed:

I don't know about you but my health insurance is going up double digits unless I agree to bear more of the cost of treatment to the tune of a higher deductible and co-insurance...like in the old FRAM commercials - you can pay me now or you can pay me later.

Yeah, but that's because you've reached the stage in life where the parts begin to wear out, the insulation frays, and the gaskets aren't nearly as solid as they used to be.
Don't know about you, but the amount of sparking and arcing which occurs when I attempt to get up in the early am is bothersome these days...and the smell of burning insulation REALLY bothers the pups.
The Frau maintains that she's seen less electromagnetic energy expended in the Northern lights.

[a fan]

Ahhhh, all you need is a another coat of paint, knees. Maybe with flames on the sides. Good as new!

[jhu72]

Nice, except that neither the House nor Senate version of the bill funds abortions or covers illegals. I guess you have not read the versions of the bills.

The problem with illegals receiving emergency medical treatment dates back to the passage of EMTALA in 1986 (which also includes COBRA benefits which covers those who lose their jobs and provides for emergency health coverage for a time until they are re-employed at very high cost BTW) which was passed by the 99th Congress in which the House was controlled by Democrats and the Senate by Republicans. Ronald Reagan was President. The Act mandates that hospitals treat whoever shows up for treatment regardless if they have insurance.

Many private health plans now cover abortion services under current legislation (of which there is very little anyway), so you should speak to those private insurance companies about the abortion coverage issue. Public option proposals to date specifically do NOT cover abortion and are in line with the Hyde Amendment.

Lastly, none of the bills in their current incarnations have "the government take over health care". They provide mandates to eliminate denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions and for all folks to get access to affordable health care mostly from private insurance providers. Even the vaunted "public option" would be available to only a small portion of the population. That said, I wish the bills would provide more tort reform and also relaxing rules allowing companies to sell insurance products across state lines but that may be for the states to enact enabling legislation.

I don't understand why the democrats are even bothering with the current incarnation of public option. It's not worth a warm bucket of spit! I don't see the public option as something you can do piecemeal, either go for it, or stop wasting everyone's time. The public option only makes sense inside of a single payer system, having a single payer is how the medical profession will see cost savings. The current incarnation of the bill just means the uninsurable will be the only ones on the public option. It raises the cost to the rest of us in taxes and we don't get any benefit.

I don't understand why the republicans fear it (other than they are as stupid as the democrats). If the democrats (those lying sack of s**t commie pinko baby killing dogs that they are) are planning on using this incarnation as the starting place to take over the US healthcare system and then the whole world, they are not picking a very good place to start from. Sort of like planning on invading France from South Africa.

You are aware that our current "public option" Medicare is a 30 Trillion unfunded liabiity and it only covers 40% of the population.

What will it cost when 100% of the population is public optioned?

I'm also curious how 1 more option in a field with 1700 existing competitors will make all the difference?

Yes and I believe every conservative republican should go home to their constituents this weekend, hold a town hall meeting, and tell them how bad Medicare is and that they are going to submit a bill in congress on Monday morning that will kill the program.

I agree, one more that caters to the uninsurable is of no value. One however (and only one) would greatly reduce the expenses associated with managing a medical practice. It saves the docs time in dealing with non-medical issues associated with the myriad of different insurance rules and requirements for getting paid. Currently there are significant staffs supporting each practicing physician dedicated to getting paid by the existing competitors. These are office workers who can handle the mundane tasks. When anything even a little complex comes up, the doc generally will have to get involved in some form or fashion. This expense comes out of the pocket of the medical practice, in terms of additional office staff and the docs billable hours. In the end less and less of your medical bill has anything to do with actual medicine. A single payer system reduces these burdens on the medical practice. This is probably the biggest reason why single and small practices that give very personalized care to their patients are and have disappeared (your know, the Norman Rockwell ideal that all the old timers love). Our medical system is now highly corporatized. Every doc I have ever spent significant time with has complained about how they don't get to practice medicine for all the "non-medical paperwork" they have to deal with. I go to bed with one, every night (well, when I am not with my mistress).

Insurance companies are nothing but a bureaucracy. One that eats 30% (this is not their profit - this is their burden on the system) of the healthcare dollar, which forces medical practices to have their own bureaucracies to deal with the 1700 different bureaucracies (it is sort of like defense contacting, only it makes less sense). Not a very efficient system. What is needed is a single system (reduces the medical office bureaucracy) and that one payer eats less than 30% of the health care dollar. This is the goal of a single payer system and it is doable. I am sure that some smart businessman, probably coming out of the health insurance industry could solve this problem and would love to have the franchise. But since that can't happen because all the other insurance executives would endlessly lobby their pet rocks in congress, there is only one possibility for such a system.

This is a case of free market competition (or the lack there of) driving the cost of the system up. Now there are ways to gain the benefits of a single payer system and have multiple free market providers. The insurance companies fight such systems because they are afraid of losing market share, because it would in fact create a level playing field and real competition. Barriers to entry into that insurance industry would be greatly reduced and smarter companies would win. There wouldn't be 1700 of them either. 1701 is not much dumber than 1700. There is no way 1700 companies can differenciate themselves from each other. The only reason there are 1700 is because of the inefficiency of the current market and the existing barriers to competition both locally and nationally. We have (or had) 3 major auto manufacturers, and two dozen models of US autos. Why 24 models of auto is/was sufficient and we need 1700 models of insurance companies is beyond me.

Could be because your selling 280 million inusrance policies rather than 12 million autos.

Speaking of autos—auto insurance works well cause it only covers expensive and rare claims.

If it had to cover everyones oil changes, brake pads and tires it would be as expensive as health insurance that covers office visits flu vaccines and ear infections.

Limit whats covered to catastrophic and/or chronic illness and it would ne more affordable.

I notice you didn't address the huge deficit caused by governments mismanagement of its existing Public Option—Medicare.

I think you are misreading my post. I am not and will not be defending those Medicare short comings. I am however tired of the hypocracy of the republicans on this issue. There are problems with Medicare, sure enough, and I think the republican minority that feels so strongly about those should stand up and tell the American people how they feel about them and should state in public that they are going to undo Medicare the first chance they get. Short of doing that (I won't be holding my breath) they should then help to fix the system that is in fact supported by the vast majority of Americans.

Your explanation of why there are 1700 insurance companies makes no sense. When most other industries see a consolidation because of efficiencies and lack of product differentciation, why should the insurance industry be different (the answer is because of the protectionism built into the system). Even if I bought your arguement that we needed more insurance companies because we sell more insurance than autos, I don't believe that it would scale linearly. An efficient system to make or sell 2x something should not require 2x as many companies. Even if I bought the linearity argument, your line of reasoning would indicate that we should only have 23 or 24 times as many insurance companies as auto models. That amounts to 560 insurance companies. Why are there nealry 1200 more than that? There is no sound economic reason why we need 1700 insurance companies. The only way this happens is through structural inefficiency in the system.

I don't insist on public option or a even a one payer system run by the government, I am simply pointing out the efficiencies that come with a one payer system. If such a system were run by single for profit entity and regulated by the government as are the public utilities, I think this would be fine. It's not going to happen, but it would go a long way to solving a problem that most healthcare organizations deal with on a daily basis. Actually I would prefer a system where there was a level playing field and the insurance industry had to really compete for business inside of a single payment process. Solves the same problem, but good luck with getting the insurance industry to go for that.

One thing we do agree on is the things that are now expected to be covered by health insurance, is a big problem. This is an expectations problem that was set in the hay day of our post war industrial expansion. At one time health insurance was meant to cover cathostrophic illness, not every sneeze and sniffle. The American poplulation, republicans and democrats are both responsible for this. Everybody wants a free lunch. No body wants to pay deductibles. Everything has to be covered. It is crazy. Before you go off and blame unions, which surely contributed to the problem, consider that most of the white colar workers in this country have traditionally not belonged to unions, but they have the same bloated policies and expectations.

[randyrad]

(1) Not quite. We are all paying for the non-payers NOW as the cost of their treatment when they get sick and go to an ER is mandated by Reagan Era law.

(2) I don't know about you but my health insurance is going up double digits unless I agree to bear more of the cost of treatment to the tune of a higher deductible and co-insurance...like in the old FRAM commercials - you can pay me now or you can pay me later. If I take the higher deductible plan I pay the double digit increase effectively anyway. I suspect there will be yet another double digit increase waiting for me in 2011, too.

(3)I'd be willing to listen to a credible alternative plan but this idea that we don't need to do anything is absurd on its face.

(1) Enough people remember their own (or friends/family) ER experience, that they're not ready to pick up the tab for the entire waiting room 24/7.
(2) See (1) above. That's not as scary as signing up to pay for (1).
(3) Like I've said before - incremental reform, insurance regulation, tort reform, fraud/waste reduction & trial programs in the % of health care already paid & administered by the Fed Govt. Show some positive results there, proof of concept - something believable. Establish confidence that the govt can actually do this one better than the existing mess.

This is all about passing around the hot potato of who's going to pay the claim for someone else.
Promises of savings & efficiencies are as believable as jobs saved/created data,regulation of financial industry (not) & Wall St compensation limitation, to date. Zero credibility. Can't even get the moderate Dems onboard.

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

[Baldo]

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

Gee, isn't that what the Bushies delivered to us all for the past 8 years? They didn't pay for anything but charged it all to future generations or for the next administartion to have the raise the revenues to pay for the wars, TARP, prescription meds and all the other stuff they ordered up.

[randyrad]

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

Gee, isn't that what the Bushies delivered to us all for the past 8 years? They didn't pay for anything but charged it all to future gens.

As I said, "no more responsible than any prior." Deficit spending, false economic bubbles, overleveraged personal & corp finances & an out of control financial industry -- all started in 01/01.
Just keep blaming Bush as we circle our way down the drain, if it makes the ride more enjoyable.

[Baldo]

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

Gee, isn't that what the Bushies delivered to us all for the past 8 years? They didn't pay for anything but charged it all to future gens.

As I said, "no more responsible than any prior." Deficit spending, false economic bubbles, overleveraged personal & corp finances & an out of control financial industry all started in 01/01.
Just keep blaming Bush as we circle our way down the drain, if it makes the ride more enjoyable.

I am merely pointing out that you (and others) seem to forget that we have been getting the same runaround from previous administrations and Congresses yet you did not seem to vent as much about it when the Republicans were in charge of things and cut taxes and asked everyone to look the other way as deficits escalated and a major economic downturn arrived. The math never added up.

Where was your outrage at those folks as they built their own House of Cards?

No different than the drain circling you do every day here for the current administration.

[OrangeLaxFan]

I hope this isn't too much info to post but here is the federal debt by year since the 1700's per US Treasury...these numbers do not include social security and medicare, which depending on the actuary you speak with, the cost of this obligation is another $50-90 trillion.

1. Note what happens during times of war.
2. Note that regardless of what party is in power, what happens to the deficit (keeps going up)


09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49 (Bush doubled the debt)
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06 (Bush)
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16 (Reagan- tripled the debt!)
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42
09/30/1985 1,823,103,000,000.00
09/30/1984 1,572,266,000,000.00
09/30/1983 1,377,210,000,000.00
09/30/1982 1,142,034,000,000.00
09/30/1981 997,855,000,000.00
09/30/1980 907,701,000,000.00 (Reagan)
09/30/1979 826,519,000,000.00
09/30/1978 771,544,000,000.00
09/30/1977 698,840,000,000.00
09/30/1976 620,433,000,000.00
06/30/1975 533,189,000,000.00
06/30/1974 475,059,815,731.55
06/30/1973 458,141,605,312.09
06/30/1972 427,260,460,940.50
06/30/1971 398,129,744,455.54
06/30/1970 370,918,706,949.93
06/30/1969 353,720,253,841.41
06/30/1968 347,578,406,425.88
06/30/1967 326,220,937,794.54
06/30/1966 319,907,087,795.48
06/30/1965 317,273,898,983.64
06/30/1964 311,712,899,257.30
06/30/1963 305,859,632,996.41
06/30/1962 298,200,822,720.87
06/30/1961 288,970,938,610.05
06/30/1960 286,330,760,848.37
06/30/1959 284,705,907,078.22
06/30/1958 276,343,217,745.81
06/30/1957 270,527,171,896.43
06/30/1956 272,750,813,649.32
06/30/1955 274,374,222,802.62
06/30/1954 271,259,599,108.46
06/30/1953 266,071,061,638.57
06/30/1952 259,105,178,785.43
06/29/1951 255,221,976,814.93
06/30/1950 257,357,352,351.04
06/30/1949 252,770,359,860.33
06/30/1948 252,292,246,512.99
06/30/1947 258,286,383,108.67
06/28/1946 269,422,099,173.26
06/30/1945 258,682,187,409.93
06/30/1944 201,003,387,221.13
06/30/1943 136,696,090,329.90
06/30/1942 72,422,445,116.22
06/30/1941 48,961,443,535.71 (WWII)
06/29/1940 42,967,531,037.68
06/30/1939 40,439,532,411.11
06/30/1938 37,164,740,315.45
06/30/1937 36,424,613,732.29
06/30/1936 33,778,543,493.73
06/29/1935 28,700,892,624.53
06/30/1934 27,053,141,414.48 (New Deal)
06/30/1933 22,538,672,560.15
06/30/1932 19,487,002,444.13
06/30/1931 16,801,281,491.71
06/30/1930 16,185,309,831.43
06/29/1929 16,931,088,484.10 (Great Depression)
06/30/1928 17,604,293,201.43
06/30/1927 18,511,906,931.85
06/30/1926 19,643,216,315.19
06/30/1925 20,516,193,887.90
06/30/1924 21,250,812,989.49
06/30/1923 22,349,707,365.36
06/30/1922 22,963,381,708.31
06/30/1921 23,977,450,552.54
07/01/1920 25,952,456,406.16
07/01/1919 27,390,970,113.12
07/01/1918 14,592,161,414.00
07/01/1917 5,717,770,279.52
07/01/1916 3,609,244,262.16
07/01/1915 3,058,136,873.16 (WWI)
07/01/1914 2,912,499,269.16
07/01/1913 2,916,204,913.66
07/01/1912 2,868,373,874.16
07/01/1911 2,765,600,606.69
07/01/1910 2,652,665,838.04
07/01/1909 2,639,546,241.04
07/01/1908 2,626,806,271.54
07/01/1907 2,457,188,061.54
07/01/1906 2,337,161,839.04
07/01/1905 2,274,615,063.84
07/01/1904 2,264,003,585.14
07/01/1903 2,202,464,781.89
07/01/1902 2,158,610,445.89
07/01/1901 2,143,326,933.89
07/01/1900 2,136,961,091.67
07/01/1899 1,991,927,306.92
07/01/1898 1,796,531,995.90
07/01/1897 1,817,672,665.90
07/01/1896 1,769,840,323.40
07/01/1895 1,676,120,983.25
07/01/1894 1,632,253,636.68
07/01/1893 1,545,985,686.13
07/01/1892 1,588,464,144.63
07/01/1891 1,545,996,591.61
07/01/1890 1,552,140,204.73
07/01/1889 1,619,052,922.23
07/01/1888 1,692,858,984.58
07/01/1887 1,657,602,592.63
07/01/1886 1,775,063,013.78
07/01/1885 1,863,964,873.14
07/01/1884 1,830,528,923.57
07/01/1883 1,884,171,728.07
07/01/1882 1,918,312,994.03
07/01/1881 2,069,013,569.58
07/01/1880 2,120,415,370.63
07/01/1879 2,349,567,482.04
07/01/1878 2,256,205,892.53
07/01/1877 2,205,301,392.10
07/01/1876 2,180,395,067.15
07/01/1875 2,232,284,531.95
07/01/1874 2,251,690,468.43
07/01/1873 2,234,482,993.20
07/01/1872 2,253,251,328.78
07/01/1871 2,353,211,332.32
07/01/1870 2,480,672,427.81
07/01/1869 2,588,452,213.94
07/01/1868 2,611,687,851.19
07/01/1867 2,678,126,103.87
07/01/1866 2,773,236,173.69
07/01/1865 2,680,647,869.74
07/01/1864 1,815,784,370.57
07/01/1863 1,119,772,138.63
07/01/1862 524,176,412.13
07/01/1861 90,580,873.72 (Civil War)
07/01/1860 64,842,287.88
07/01/1859 58,496,837.88
07/01/1858 44,911,881.03
07/01/1857 28,699,831.85
07/01/1856 31,972,537.90
07/01/1855 35,586,956.56
07/01/1854 42,242,222.42
07/01/1853 59,803,117.70
07/01/1852 66,199,341.71
07/01/1851 68,304,796.02
07/01/1850 63,452,773.55

07/01/1849 63,061,858.69
07/01/1848 47,044,862.23
07/01/1847 38,826,534.77
07/01/1846 15,550,202.97
07/01/1845 15,925,303.01
07/01/1844 23,461,652.50
07/01/1843 32,742,922.00
01/01/1843 20,201,226.27
01/01/1842 13,594,480.73
01/01/1841 5,250,875.54
01/01/1840 3,573,343.82
01/01/1839 10,434,221.14
01/01/1838 3,308,124.07
01/01/1837 336,957.83
01/01/1836 37,513.05
01/01/1835 33,733.05
01/01/1834 4,760,082.08
01/01/1833 7,001,698.83
01/01/1832 24,322,235.18
01/01/1831 39,123,191.68
01/01/1830 48,565,406.50
01/01/1829 58,421,413.67
01/01/1828 67,475,043.87
01/01/1827 73,987,357.20
01/01/1826 81,054,059.99
01/01/1825 83,788,432.71
01/01/1824 90,269,777.77
01/01/1823 90,875,877.28
01/01/1822 93,546,676.98
01/01/1821 89,987,427.66
01/01/1820 91,015,566.15
01/01/1819 95,529,648.28
01/01/1818 103,466,633.83
01/01/1817 123,491,965.16
01/01/1816 127,334,933.74
01/01/1815 99,833,660.15
01/01/1814 81,487,846.24
01/01/1813 55,962,827.57
01/01/1812 45,209,737.90
01/01/1811 48,005,587.76
01/01/1810 53,173,217.52
01/01/1809 57,023,192.09
01/01/1808 65,196,317.97
01/01/1807 69,218,398.64
01/01/1806 75,723,270.66
01/01/1805 82,312,150.50
01/01/1804 86,427,120.88
01/01/1803 77,054,686.40
01/01/1802 80,712,632.25
01/01/1801 83,038,050.80
01/01/1800 82,976,294.35
01/01/1799 78,408,669.77
01/01/1798 79,228,529.12
01/01/1797 82,064,479.33
01/01/1796 83,762,172.07
01/01/1795 80,747,587.39
01/01/1794 78,427,404.77
01/01/1793 80,358,634.04
01/01/1792 77,227,924.66
01/01/1791 75,463,476.52

political economics is a disaster for everyone involved.

[randyrad]

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

Gee, isn't that what the Bushies delivered to us all for the past 8 years? They didn't pay for anything but charged it all to future gens.

As I said, "no more responsible than any prior." Deficit spending, false economic bubbles, overleveraged personal & corp finances & an out of control financial industry all started in 01/01.
Just keep blaming Bush as we circle our way down the drain, if it makes the ride more enjoyable.

I am merely pointing out that you (and others) seem to forget that we have been getting the same runaround from previous administrations and Congresses yet you did not seem to vent as much about it when the Republicans were in charge of things and cut taxes and asked everyone to look the other way as deficits escalated and a major economic downturn arrived. The math never added up.

Where was your outrage at those folks as they built their own House of Cards?

before the Great Economic Meltdown of 09/08, it still seemed concievable to grow our way out of the hole. Then we saw how shaky our entire economic system was, & how wrong the conventional wisdom economic policy making (of both parties/ Wall St/ Main St) actually was.
Then TARP & STIMULUS took us accross the Rubicon. Our economic hole became a bottomless chasm.
Our debt : GDP are now so staggering that they defy logic.

I've never been a fan of govt deficit spending. I've always been uncomfortable when govt or a business ran their finances different than I did my own - never payed a cent in interest for anything other than a home mortgage or comml aircraft financing, & always paid'em down/off early. All the sharpies told me I was missing out on the opportunities of leverage & margin buys. I don't feel like such a rube now. Our entire economy, business & personal, is now based on leverage & debt (vice savings & equity) -- that's why the Fed govt can get away with it too, voters think only in terms of their next paycheck & monthly payments - never considering the payoff. Thanks to STIMULUS, State & Local govts now effectively federalize their deficits.
Other than inflation (or default), I don't see a way out. Communism's been tried elsewhere & doesn't seem to work.

[OrangeLaxFan]

Randy Rad has my vote for Secretary of the Treasury. Hit the nail on the head with common sense economic logic that escapes so many of our elected officials and even the leaders of many large businesses. government attempts to correct the economy are foolhardy at best since they don't even understand the problem. how can you fix what you can't comprehend?

Here's an interesting article on government accounting procedures; it may seem like an odd article but as a CPA it made sense to me: http://mises.org/story/3667

also, the government economic model is largely modeled after the Keynesian theory of economics; the system has never brought about the utopia it asseretd it would bring about but it has achieved another goal - government intervention into economic matters. The austrian theory of the businees cycle is a fascinating system. you all should read up about it. just google it and see what you come up with and feel free to post your thoughts on here. most people dont even know what it is but, IMHO, it is the most thorough system of analysis that has yet to be conceived. enjoy.

[a fan]

Good stuff, Orangelaxfan.

Show of hands: how many of you think that if we get a Republican in charge next time around, the deficit will go down?

[Go Team]

Good stuff, Orangelaxfan.

Show of hands: how many of you think that if we get a Republican in charge next time around, the deficit will go down?

I doubt the deficit will go down with a Repub in the white house, a conservative may have a chance...


On a more important note, how are most Americans going to pay for $8,000-$10,000 next year for health care? Talk about deficit spending.

[sore+old]

Another Obama stinker! Can't wait to see what a great job these people do with Health Care. And according to Edmunds .com, we paid as tax payers about $24,000 per vehicle.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200911 ... VMNG0.html

[Brooklyn]

''how many of you think that if we get a Republican in charge next time around, the deficit will go down?''


And when it goes further up, how many Pukies will say, BLAME OBAMA!

[sore+old]

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

Gee, isn't that what the Bushies delivered to us all for the past 8 years? They didn't pay for anything but charged it all to future gens.

As I said, "no more responsible than any prior." Deficit spending, false economic bubbles, overleveraged personal & corp finances & an out of control financial industry all started in 01/01.
Just keep blaming Bush as we circle our way down the drain, if it makes the ride more enjoyable.

I am merely pointing out that you (and others) seem to forget that we have been getting the same runaround from previous administrations and Congresses yet you did not seem to vent as much about it when the Republicans were in charge of things and cut taxes and asked everyone to look the other way as deficits escalated and a major economic downturn arrived. The math never added up.

Where was your outrage at those folks as they built their own House of Cards?

No different than the drain circling you do every day here for the current administration.

Of course the opposite is also true, where is the outrage now from the Bush bashers. Forget Bush! George is no longer president. Obama ran on a platform of change and over haul. The only thing that's changed is whose pocket the money goes and of course at a faster pace. Obama asked for the job because he could get us on the right track. We now not only have more pigs at the trough but they are bigger and hungrier.

[sore+old]

Baldo observed:

I don't know about you but my health insurance is going up double digits unless I agree to bear more of the cost of treatment to the tune of a higher deductible and co-insurance...like in the old FRAM commercials - you can pay me now or you can pay me later.

Yeah, but that's because you've reached the stage in life where the parts begin to wear out, the insulation frays, and the gaskets aren't nearly as solid as they used to be.
Don't know about you, but the amount of sparking and arcing which occurs when I attempt to get up in the early am is bothersome these days...and the smell of burning insulation REALLY bothers the pups.
The Frau maintains that she's seen less electromagnetic energy expended in the Northern lights.

It must be an effect of Global Warming.

[Go Team]

This Admin has shown themselves as no more responsible than any prior. No crisis unexploited = buy off as many special interests & new Dem voters as possible with "Stimulus" & promise more unsustainable entitlements to the Dem base, knowing full well that entitlements can never be rolled back & it'll be future admin's problem to figure out how to pay for them (& take the heat) via inevitable tax increases.

Gee, isn't that what the Bushies delivered to us all for the past 8 years? They didn't pay for anything but charged it all to future gens.

As I said, "no more responsible than any prior." Deficit spending, false economic bubbles, overleveraged personal & corp finances & an out of control financial industry all started in 01/01.
Just keep blaming Bush as we circle our way down the drain, if it makes the ride more enjoyable.

I am merely pointing out that you (and others) seem to forget that we have been getting the same runaround from previous administrations and Congresses yet you did not seem to vent as much about it when the Republicans were in charge of things and cut taxes and asked everyone to look the other way as deficits escalated and a major economic downturn arrived. The math never added up.

Where was your outrage at those folks as they built their own House of Cards?

No different than the drain circling you do every day here for the current administration.

Of course the opposite is also true, where is the outrage now from the Bush bashers. Forget Bush! George is no longer president. Obama ran on a platform of change and over haul. The only thing that's changed is whose pocket the money goes and of course at a faster pace. Obama asked for the job because he could get us on the right track. We now not only have more pigs at the trough but they are bigger and hungrier.

Ugh! fatter and hungrier pigs... I can't stand it. Porkers at a buffet line.