Michigan v. Denison

Men's Collegiate Lacrosse Association

Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby Beachbum on Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:57 pm

Disclaimer: I am not a club hater, just someone who has seen quite a bit of top NCAA and MCLA lacrosse over the past few years, as well as multiple cross-divisional games/scrimmages/exhibitions. I feel as though I can give an objective analysis of how MCLA stacks up with NCAA D3.

Chapman beat 8th ranked Ithaca in the regular season last year 14-11.Lemme guess.. it doesnt mean anything right? please..


This is a pretty misleading example IMO. Westsidelax.com fails to mention that this game was clearly played as a scrimmage---both teams subbed liberally throughout the game. Plain and simple, if winning is the primary objective you do not play everyone on your entire roster. To use this result as a measure of comparison between the NCAA and MCLA is not entirely accurate. A much better example is the Whittier/Chapman game from this past spring. The game was played exclusively with starting personnel, and it is clear that both teams employed opponent specific game plans. This game was a battle to the end, and would leave an objective observer to believe that when all things are equal, the best MCLA teams are somewhere in the range of 30-50 when compared to NCAA D3. For example, had Ithaca treated this contest as an E8 game (starters all game, detailed scouting reports), they probably would have won by 3-5 goals even while on the road. The talent difference between Ithaca's starters/depth and Chapman's starters/depth was evident during the Ithaca/Whittier game days later when Whittier had a much tougher time competing with Ithaca than they did with Chapman.

Another example of NCAA and MCLA competition in a non scrimmage environment is when Whittier was a top 5 D3 team in the early 2000's. These inter-division contests were played as real games, with Whittier simply dominating club competition. I'm pretty certain the results would be similar today if club teams regularly played top 5 D3 teams ie Salisbury, Cortland, Stevenson etc... I know the MCLA has improved since '02/'03 however, I think the club league has improved much more in terms of league depth, not necessarily the best teams becoming a ton better. Regardless of how you view Chapman's performance vs. Ithaca or the recent Whittier teams, the biggest and most legit performance for the MCLA was in 2004 when BYU upset Whittier 12-10 in the season opener (Whittier was not a top 5 team anymore, but still were in the top 15 and made the NCAA playoffs). This was far more impressive than anything of late.

Finally, in terms of Denison beating Michigan this weekend, it's pointless to compare results of any lacrosse game in the fall. There are way too many variables/approaches specific to each team's fall schedule to find a truly meaningful comparison.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby Adamsschool on Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:12 pm

11 of the 15 members of Denison's junior class are overseas this semester, Denison's all-american FOGO did not play and Denison's starting goalie did not play.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby laxingforshore on Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:29 am

If you want to say both teams substituted liberally (Chapman played more kids than Ithaca) and both did not plan, the fact that Chapman came out on top may still mean they were the better team last year. Chapman’s lax power rating was 87.42 which would put them between Cloby and Conn College at number 35. I think that’s about right.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby Beachbum on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:32 am

If you want to say both teams substituted liberally (Chapman played more kids than Ithaca) and both did not plan, the fact that Chapman came out on top may still mean they were the better team last year.


I'm not interested in arguing about who played more kids, but I think the fact that both teams played plenty of guys makes this a tough game to draw overall comparisons on---Ithaca played multiple goalies and they don't take out Gal unless winning is not of great importance.


lax power rating was 87.42 which would put them between Cloby and Conn College at number 35. I think that’s about right.


Not sure how you can argue that Chapman was truly the better team, but then agree that 35th sounds about right? Also, I assumed a year ago that the ratings where comparable across divisions but was told otherwise. Perhaps someone could answer if the power rating values can be used to determine predicted outcome between an MCLA and NCAA team. Either way, I'm glad we agree that the best club teams are in that range as it is pretty clear to me based on what I've seen.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby laxingforshore on Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:02 pm

My point is both teams approached the game the same way, subbing lots of kids, multiples goalies, working this out etc. If both approached this like a game playing only the top 20-23 how can you assume the outcome would be different. Ithaca lost at home 10-7 last year to RIT in a league game. RIT rating was 88.12.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby call me Johnson on Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:31 pm

Adamsschool wrote:11 of the 15 members of Denison's junior class are overseas this semester, Denison's all-american FOGO did not play and Denison's starting goalie did not play.


Thanks for the info. You seem to have inside info on Denison, but do you know which of Michigan's regular players did not play, or how much the starters played, or what strategies they were employing that they run in the spring, or what they were doing that was new, etc, etc.

Again, not making a case for anyone being better than anyone else. If I had to guess, I would guess Denison is a little ahead of Michigan (that's an uneducated guess, by the way). My point is, statements like this have no relevence. Two good teams scrimmaged. Hopefully the experience helped them prepare for the spring when they will both be playing meaningful games against opponents from their own divisions. That's all it is.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby MassLaxer19 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:19 pm

Denison is a Top 10 team this year in Division III, that program has really grown into a great team.
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby Zamboni_Driver on Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:24 pm

When oh when, will the MCLA get it through their thick skulls, if you want respect, please play all these exhibition games/scrimmages on the east coast -- and then we can evaluate the talent...its easy to claim something from afar...
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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby thatsmell on Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:26 pm

laxingforshore wrote: Chapman’s lax power rating was 87.42 which would put them between Cloby and Conn College at number 35. I think that’s about right.


Great discussion here! But unfortunaltely, the laxpower ratings are not cross-compatible, division-wise.

We all wish they were, but statistically, you can't compare because there are not enough true cross-division games.

And those laxpower ratings are measuring the specific division. It's like saying Gilman high school's 99.9 power ranking last year means they are on the same level as Syracuse's 99.9 ranking.

It's just a barometer against common oponents. And you would need a substantial sample of games to make that leap. One or two games wouldn't cut it. It's the same reason that the laxpower rankings are not accurate until each team has played 4-5 (6) games. You'd need all of the teams to play that many cross-division games to make that argument and compare their rankings.

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Re: Michigan v. Denison

New postby born2laxallday on Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:56 pm

what a joke, why does michicant keep doing this to themselves, they suck get over it
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