WPIAL 12

For discussions of high school varsity boys' lacrosse

Re: WPIAL 12

New postby brutus of apple hill on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:50 pm

laxn@ wrote:It's true about Seneca. Sad to see lots of good kids leaving the program.


maybe they have decided to just low and away it because that is all you need to do and you will be D1...
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby infintelaxin on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:01 am

I am back and forth on situations faced at Seneca. On one side I feel for those who just want to be part of a team and on the other side for those who want to play at the next level it's a dose of reality. College athletics is very tough and you don't have parents meddling with coaches like you see in HS.

I am a huge fan of Bobby Knight, so I am for tough love in sports, but more so in college and maybe a little less in HS. I still think SV will be strong this season.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby laxnot on Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am

There is a lot of smoke here, but no fire. What is all this about SV? Who and why? Sour grapes or legit?
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby Footballdadlaxson on Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:28 pm

Without knowledge of anything going on at SV I will keep this general. Working HS kids hard is completely acceptable and may runoff a few lazy kids but will stregthen the program and the remaining players. Ripping, ridiculing and belittling HS kids to motivate them will run off kids in droves and may result in short term success but is not usually sustained. Additionally, it is immoral and should not be tolerated. Only focusing on your stars and pet projects will run off kids faster than anything and quickly causes the complete absence of depth. (Again, in no way saying this is happening at SV just commenting on the Coach Knight reference.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby KWarren on Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:11 pm

Footballdad-

I agree with everything you said in terms of practical application. But, I have to disagree with it as a reference to Bobby Knight- guy has the 2nd most wins in D1 history, so "in the long run" his methods were a wild success. But, as I said, in practice, you are right- it is a completely unacceptable way to coach at the high school level.

I think it goes back to the same problem we have had in the area for a while (and I am speaking in general, not of the SV situation) the lack of high end coaches. But, for a long time, I believe it was just assumed that once former players started coaching all would be taken care of. But, the reality is that having some maturity/experience is very important. Obviously knowledge of the game is important, but so is understanding of how to run a program and lead young men.

I think the problem is that this area is asking young men to be head high school coaches when they should be coaching youth or working as assistants to help gain that experience.

Just my two cents.
Last edited by KWarren on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby tree88 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:23 pm

I don't know any of the details, but know enough of the players to say that there is no major issue. The top players are still there and are getting better. They may have lost some depth, but the program is large and has fresh troops coming in behind. Coaches were tough back in the 70's and 80's...sometimes think this might not be a bad thing for today's youth to have some discipline and rigor.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby Dwight_Schrute on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:13 pm

infintelaxin wrote:I am back and forth on situations faced at Seneca. On one side I feel for those who just want to be part of a team and on the other side for those who want to play at the next level it's a dose of reality. College athletics is very tough and you don't have parents meddling with coaches like you see in HS.


infitelaxin,
I have a kid playing lax right now in college and would strongly disagree with the statement that parents don't meddle with college coaches. There's definitely less parents meddling, but there are still many who are doing it and are much more ruthless and sneaky than high school parents. People who say that it doesn't affect coaches are blind. A few bad words from a parent to other parents in a home district can kill a college coach's recruiting ability in that area. Coaches know that. Also, with college lacrosse not being a revenue generating sport and not getting top notch funding, I've seen where a well placed donation to the school for a lacrosse program can affect playing time.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby infintelaxin on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Dwight, that's sad to hear. I certainly would question sending my kid to a coach who is influenced by parents. I would be appauled to approach a coach, I might not agree with some off their actions, but would never voice them or try to influence on the sly. Shame, and the comment about killing recruiting in an area I am baffled. If i were the coach, I would want to stay away from that area, why do you want more than 1 parent trying to influence you lol.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby infintelaxin on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:14 pm

Footballdadlaxson wrote:Without knowledge of anything going on at SV I will keep this general. Working HS kids hard is completely acceptable and may runoff a few lazy kids but will stregthen the program and the remaining players. Ripping, ridiculing and belittling HS kids to motivate them will run off kids in droves and may result in short term success but is not usually sustained. Additionally, it is immoral and should not be tolerated. Only focusing on your stars and pet projects will run off kids faster than anything and quickly causes the complete absence of depth. (Again, in no way saying this is happening at SV just commenting on the Coach Knight reference.

Coach Knight get's more out of his players than most, he wins at the college level with very few kids who go on to the NBA with any length. That say a lot about his ability to coach, you may not agree with his tactics, but they produce a we versus me mentality that many could benefit from!
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby splittopleft on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:49 pm

I firmly believe that Peet Poillon has a solid grasp on his program. What he is doing is setting a precedent in his program that the next wave of kids coming in will be aware of. The kids that have quit, are quitters and you don't need that in your program. This is what the hot-beds of lacrosse have been like for decades. 5 am practices. mandatory weight training. two-a-day stick sessions in the offseason. 3 miles a day. That's what the best teams in the country have been doing and are doing. With as competitive as Peet is, maybe he is setting a precedent for WPA??? It's getting the kids with the desire to play at the next level. Those are the kids that are the easiest to coach and the easiest to develop. Peet recognizes that he has the numbers there that weeding out the week minded, softer groups of players won't be felt on the roster. Watch how good they are going to be this year. I think they will run through Western PA. Lebo will be their only competition.

I'm more curious to see if there will be any surprises this year. What do we think?? I watched a lot of summer ball and a fair amount of fall ball. Besides the top of the heap (Lebo,SA,SV,Franklin) is this year Hampton or Butler makes a t"top 5" It looks like each play 8 games vs. Division 1 teams. I would be assuming that they are coming to D1 next year. How far off are they? Don't know much about Butler other then they ran through the pumpkin. Hampton looks very, very solid. They may run through their divsion 1 schedule this year? Any thoughts on the "little guys" making a name for themselves this year? Does anybody really care, seeing as they can't compete for a D1 ship?
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby laxn@ on Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:29 am

While I wish Peet and SV the best of luck this season, I'm thinking that they are going to need it.

Not only has Peet lost seasoned varsity starters, he is losing the up-and-coming kids as well. Kids who have played consistently well at youth, middle school and JV levels are quitting so that they don't have to face the prospect of playing for him. Word is out that he's harsh and unforgiving, and if you want to label experienced, talented players who opt out as lazy/weak/whatever, that's your option. But there's no disputing the fact that he's got a much smaller pool of talent to draw from.

The program was rebuilding from its peak two years ago, grooming kids to replace McAndrews etc. We'll see what's left for Peet to work with.

Is WPa lax too soft? Compared to lacrosse strongholds, probably. But there are few kids around here with the chops to make it "big time," and 5AM practices/two-a-days/hefting a Volkswagen bus up a hillside or whatever passes for off-season conditioning is not yet our area's standard. Or maybe it is, for kids whose parents are pushing them so hard to make it into a D1 program that they will likely burn out before Daddy's dream is realized.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby infintelaxin on Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:11 am

Some interesting and valid points by all. I heard SV will be more than good this year and if they win it all people will say what he does worked for that group of kids.

I bet there are many WPA football coaches pushing the kids hard off season and seems to generate quality players.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby tree88 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:25 am

Not sure who the seasoned varsity starters are that they lost. I know of one starting d-pole that isn't playing, so that could impact their defense and depth at that position. I think the starting line-up will be formidable. Their attack line, as a unit, may be the best in the WPIAL with a combination of size and skill. They are 3-deep at goalie, and all 3 could start for almost any other team in the WPIAL. They have a few of the best middies in the WPIAL, although depth could be an issue, if they did lose some players at that position. The second middie line can be a difference maker when playing against the top teams. Most WPIAL schools struggle with depth at middie...that could be a problem for SV.

One other thought. WPIAL football, basketball, soccer and baseball all are highly disciplined sports with fairly extreme rigor and demanding coaches. Since lacrosse in WPA was initially a club sport, it has always been thought of differently. That is starting to change, and probably should. The parents and kids need to realize this and "man-up".
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby Footballdadlaxson on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:33 am

If the committment is too much for some and they decide it just isn't worth playing lacrosse then I am fine with that. If however the demands prevent participating in other sports (as many short-sighted football coaches do) or god forbid make academics secondary then the coach should be limited by the administration. There should be opportunities to develop even for those whose lacrosse career will end in HS.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby tree88 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:39 am

FootballDad...agree completely. I don't think that is the case with WPIAL lax coaches. Most of them encourage their guys to play football and are tough on academics.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby brutus of apple hill on Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:29 am

SV has a alot of good SR's and JR's and two good goalies so they may well win the WPIAL.

Pushing kids is a good thing that there needs to be more of. The problem is that the soccer mom mentality that everyone gets a trophy is only enabling young kids to not work as hard. There are some parents who dont spare the rod so there are some good hard working kids across the boards. But if you ask alot of college coaches who have been around for a while, in all sports not just Lacrosse, kids are just not as mentally tough or hard working as they used to be on the whole. What coaches like the SV coach have to worry about is the meddling, delusional, and donkey parents. Just ask the last SV coach (who was extremely successful) about those type of parents. When I think or hear stories about soft kids today all I can think about is the snooty matrie d from ferris buellers days off saying "i weep for the future." :D I give my father crap all the time about spanking me when I was young and bad (just becuase thats what good sons do), then thank him and hug him for showing/making me a man and keeping me from going to jail (becuase thats what goood fathers do).

If you find a college coach who is cocerned with what the parents are saying I say you find a college coach who doesnt win and/or is more worried about making people happy than making kids better players and more important better adults.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby tomahawk.chop on Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:30 pm

im reading these posts on SV. i have no personal knowlege of SV. im boiling down what little info there is here to numbers falling off because of the berating and not because of the workouts. is that right? that sucks, if its true. everyone's aware that you can cut kids during tryouts, right? anything that makes kids quit before tryouts is probably borderline stupid.

mental toughness is one thing. i understand the point on kids being softer nowadays with the super-positive, 18-year long environment of the modern age. but this is different. being bullied by a coach doesnt fly any more. a good coach should have a quality that can convince anyone to want to play lacrosse & work harder to get better. i even subscribe to the bobby knight method, but i know now its not all effective in hs. it works on some very specific kids, not teams. you better hope you have one of the right kids, the one special kid who gets it and also has the stuff to set an example or be the leader. if its not the right kid, you get the titanic. the watchout isn't the titanic for your team. the watchout is when the titanic is your program.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby infintelaxin on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:43 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7xX1NJeAJc

someone showed this to me tonight and thought I would share to those who are interested.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby 2.25 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:04 pm

tomahawk.chop wrote:im reading these posts on SV. i have no personal knowlege of SV. im boiling down what little info there is here to numbers falling off because of the berating and not because of the workouts. is that right? that sucks, if its true. everyone's aware that you can cut kids during tryouts, right? anything that makes kids quit before tryouts is probably borderline stupid.

mental toughness is one thing. i understand the point on kids being softer nowadays with the super-positive, 18-year long environment of the modern age. but this is different. being bullied by a coach doesnt fly any more. a good coach should have a quality that can convince anyone to want to play lacrosse & work harder to get better. i even subscribe to the bobby knight method, but i know now its not all effective in hs. it works on some very specific kids, not teams. you better hope you have one of the right kids, the one special kid who gets it and also has the stuff to set an example or be the leader. if its not the right kid, you get the titanic. the watchout isn't the titanic for your team. the watchout is when the titanic is your program.



When I said I wasn't surprised about what was written here about SV, I wasn't referring to Peet, I was referring to the parents. Maybe a young coach does need to mature and learn that different kids can be pushed with different approaches. You gotta decide if you want a huge program where kids "know" that come varsity their mom and dad don't matter and playing time is dictated by skill, winning and academic eligibility. Having a bunch of kids at the 7/8 grade and JV level that are just there to have fun and be a "Bro" simply funds the program - don't forget that. And, every once in a while, one of those kids matures physically and becomes one of your best players. If he quits in 9th grade you will never know that. So, I say give Peet some time and see how he does. My bet he learns a thing or two along the way and matures. I still think that its Lebo and SV this year, but we'll see. Even with the reported "defections" Seneca's gotta have one of the biggest programs top to bottom in WPA.
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Re: WPIAL 12

New postby laxnot on Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:26 pm

There are many reasons kids quit playing any sport. Coach conflicts can be one reason. Realizing they aren't all that good and they aren't going to get lots of playing time is another. Wanting to spend more time with a girlfriend is another. Dropping their second or third sport to concentrate on their "main" sport is another. If Poillon is demanding his players play the game right and put in the time necessary to do that, then he is only acting like most football coaches, and kids drop out of football every year (for all the aforementioned reasons). I wouldn't read more into this than it really is at this point. For now he is a good coach, who knows the game of lacrosse, and who should only get better as he learns how to coach and how to handle kids (and parents). How good only time will tell.
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